Doebringer

[ChrisThies]

Thanks, Jake, for keeping me honest.

I'll tell you why I THOUGHT Doebringer's unterhaw-unterhaw-oberhaw was a mistake, but first let me apologize and admit that I stand corrected. To my knowledge there are no other textual examples of 'Dy drey hewe' other than Doebringer's. Therefore the Masters definition stands until proven otherwise.

I just now quickly flipped through Lindholm's translation of Ringeck HOPING to find an oberhau-unterhau-oberhau/shietelhau definition of dy drey hewe (so as not to look like too much of a schmuck), but found no textual example of dy drey hewe, only a 'unterhau-unterhau-oberhau' definition in the book's Glossary. And on a related note that may be used to support the general concept of Lichtenauer's unterhau-unterhau-oberhau combination, on page 88 there is an explanation of a double attack to the same blossen with the same strike, followed by a different third strike, 'Twice further on, step to the left and do not forget the cut'.

I've always thought 'Drey Hewe' to be an oberhau-unterhau-oberhau/schietelhau combination for the following reasons:
1) it's defined as such in the ARMA medieval terminology section.
2) it seemed to me to be a perfectly natural, flowing combination. So I never questioned it.
3) Vadi's definition of 'Rota' (9 Verso, page 65 of Mele translation), '...that I mix with other strokes...', solidified what I thought I already knew.

Does this mean I won't be getting anything for Christmas? <img src="/forum/images/icons/blush.gif" alt="" />

[Jake_Norwood]

Hi Chris. I had the same reaction when I read that the first time (about 3 weeks ago, IIRC). What gets me, though, is *how* to pull it off. I still don't "see" how the U-U-O combo works so well that Doebringer would feel it's a noteworthy combination. So I've got to work with it some.

Just remember that a lot of the ARMA terminology comes from a time when there was a *lot* less available research and materials than we have now.

Jake

[Jeffrey Hull]

Not to state the obvious, but one of the best ways to test a variety of grips vis-a-vis any sort of pommel, whether scent-stopper or wheel, is to give the various grips a try during practice cutting of targets.

JH

[Jako Valis]

Jake,

Have you tried cutting unterhaw with false edge (from right side), then unterhaw with true edge (from left side) and finishing with an oberhaw (from right side)?

Basicly you would go from alber to langenort to schranckhut to ochs and again back to alber through langenort (from ochs you could go through vom tach -variant).

Yours, Jako

[Jake_Norwood]

Jako-

I have, and this was, in fact, my first thought of what this must be. However, I find that it is significantly easier and faster to throw that last oberhau with the short edge--which isn't what I *think* Doebringer is describing. Not that I have anything other than instinct to base that on, though.

I know that Meyer uses several variations on that combination.

Jake

[Jeff Hansen]

Hey Jake:
The Meyer wechselhau you showed us at the Provo event is under - under - over. If Doebringer doesn't have a specific description of the wechselhau elsewhere?....

just a thought

[Jake_Norwood]

Well yes, it sort of is, (although that first under is aimed at a high target). The second "under" in Doebringers 3-cuts is at the weapon, though, which is much different from what Meyer's wechselhau does.

OTOH, I think we're starting to bark up the right tree.

Jake

[Craig Peters]

This doesn´t relate to this particular discussion, but since it has to do with Hanko´s fechtbuch, I thought I´d bring it up here, rather than start a new thread. Did anyone else notice that the first line of his fechtbuch is nearly identical to the full title of Flos Duellatorum?

´´Here begins Master Liechtenauer´s art of fencing with the sword, on foot and on horseback, with armour and without.´´

´´Flos Duellatorum on armis, sine armis, equester et pedester.´´

It sounds as though Fiore almost certainly studied under Master Johannes himself.

[Jako Valis]

Hi!

´´Flos Duellatorum on armis, sine armis, equester et pedester.´´

I believe this would translate as "Flos Duellatorum armed, unarmed, on horseback and on foot"

armis = by force of arms

I don't really see a connection here.

-Jako

[Craig Peters]

Are you serious that you cannot see the connection? <img src="/forum/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" /> The two phrases are nearly identical, word for word. Doesn´t that strike you as a pretty good indication that Fiore studied not just under any German master, but under Johannes Liechtenauer himself?

[Randall Pleasant]

Craig

Even if the line are identical it may indicate *many* different things or nothing at all. It could just as easily indicate that Fiore read some of the writings about Liechtenauer <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" /> , it may indicate that the phrase was a common one during that period <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" /> , or it may indicate that the same thought ran through their heads completely independent of each other <img src="/forum/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" /> .

Myself, I would not be supprise if future research shows that Fiore studied under Liechtenauer. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Jake_Norwood]

I would be. Their fundamentals are really pretty different, at least where striking is concerned. And there's a 30 year age difference.

Jake

[GaryGrzybek]

Hi Jake,

I'm finding in my current upgrade to the Albion sword line that a wheel pommel with proper shape and dimention allows partial gripping with great ease. Some of the Del Tin models need a larger pommel to balance a thicker heavier blade. So yes, wheel pommels have their place and are quite handy if done right.

[Jake_Norwood]

Hi Gary.

Working with my new federschwert, I'm finding that the extra-long handle makes a big difference, too. Most of the illustrated L. manuals have very long grips--what we'd call greatswords, really, not "longswords," by our modern nomenclature. That, too, makes a rather large difference.

Jake

[Sean_Gallaty]

Know also that a good fencer should before all things know his sword and be able to grip it well with both hands, between the cross guard and the pommel since you will then be safer than if you did grip it with one hand on the pommel. And you will also strike harder and truer, with the pommel swinging itself and turning in the strike you will strike harder then if you were holding the pommel. When you pull the pommel in the strike you will not come as perfect or as strongly.

He also says in the next line :

For the sword is like a scale, if a sword is large and heavy then the pommel must also be large and heavy to balance it like a scale.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that he's referring to the center of mass on the weapon, and he's suggesting you not swing it from the butt, but rather rotate it around the center of mass.

If you hold the butt, you're going to prevent it from rotating around the center of mass freely. If we're talking about a striking cut, could he be advocating the 'whip snap wrist' action? back right leg locked, rotate hip forward into shoulder rotation, then elbow forward, the snap forearm forward ending with translating the forward motion of the arm into rotational energy in the weapon.

That's what his advice seemed to suggest to me. "Don't put your hand on the pommel, you'll slow your weapon down, it's balanced around the center."

just a thought, don't kill me for ignorance.

- nox