ReMA vs. MMA

[david welch]

Since according to you BJJ is the ultimate fighting art, criminals only attack one at a time and always unarmed, and eveyone before 1880 was retarded and couldn't figure out unarmed combat... why are you here at a historical western martial arts site?

[Mike Cartier]

sounds like you got your oil checked Dave <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[Dave Nathan]

criminals only attack one at a time and always unarmed, and eveyone before 1880 was retarded and couldn't figure out unarmed combat... why are you here at a historical western martial arts site?

Suddenly so hostile?

I never stated that BJJ is the ultimate fighting art, nor did I even leave an inkling at that statement. That is your assumption. Also, when criminals attack more than one at a time, do you expect the wrestling and striking in Ringen to do much better than MMA or BJJ? It wouldn't, plain and simple, so that is no grounds for fallacy.

I am on a western martial arts site because I want to talk to people who do western martial arts, and I happen to have an opinion. Do you have a problem with that?

[david welch]

There have been many successful fighters who trained in traditional arts similar to Ringen. However, there has bee a trend among them: they all adopt some sort of MMA trick (or many) into their skillset.

Probably because they had no clue about the gaurd, open gaurd, and sweep techniques

However, in today's modern world, such battles don't exist for practical reasons. Thus, combat has evolved to meet the change, and most esspecially civilian self-defense.

(I take that to mean SD doesn't have the battle field problems of multiples and weapons)

Also, when criminals attack more than one at a time, do you expect the wrestling and striking in Ringen to do much better than MMA or BJJ?

if I have multiple opponents with weapons, do I think it's better to use ringen or go to the ground...?

I am on a western martial arts site because I want to talk to people who do western martial arts, and I happen to have an opinion. Do you have a problem with that?

No, not with that. But I do belong to several other Martial arts boards that have been flooded with BJJ/MMA agenda trolls lately because we didn't recognize BJJ/MMA as the "ultimate fighting art", outside of ninjas and pirates, and I was wondering if that is what you are.

[Dave Nathan]

if I have multiple opponents with weapons, do I think it's better to use ringen or go to the ground...?

It'd probably better to have a Desert Eagle. My point is, regardless of a martial art's training, a 1 versus many situation will lead to a sound beat of the 1, regardless of if that 1 does BJJ, Ringen, Kung Fu, Boxing, freestyle, or what ever.

No, not with that. But I do belong to several other Martial arts boards that have been flooded with BJJ/MMA agenda trolls lately because we didn't recognize BJJ/MMA as the "ultimate fighting art", outside of ninjas and pirates, and I was wondering if that is what you are.

I have no agenda, nor am I looking for anyone to recognize anything as the "ultimate art." I determine my own effectiveness by my ability to win in competition against others, not by text over the internet. I will admit that I am biased towards MMA and BJJ, if it isn't already evident by my arguing points to defend MMA and BJJ. Everyone is biased, just as certain people here are biased towards Ringen.

[Jake_Norwood]

Hi Dave.

First, don't worry about the other Dave. We're good buddies, and he doesn't mean any harm (or very little). Just not a fan of BJJ is all. He's got his reasons (many of them very good), but that's a derailment from this thread's current discussion IMO.

MMA is not merely a mixture of striking, clinching, and groundwork. Those would qualify it as an individual art. MMA is defined by the fact that techniques may and will be borrowed from other styles according a fighter's needs in the ring/cage. It's a similar concept to Jeet Kun Do: Use the techniques which are most effective, while doing away with those that aren't.

Ringen isn't really an individual art, either. It's several disciplines (as previously outlined). It is also one discipline set out of a much larger one. It isn't MMA in the sense of "an amalgamation of stuff from different continents," but you'll find wrestling from Ott the Jew side by side with techniques that "come from" Italy or other parts of Europe all in the toolkit of a German "ringen" fighter. But remember, "Ringen" means wrestling just like "Fencing" means fighting--not the narrowed-down interpretation that we are wont to assign to it nowadays.

If Ringen includes all three ranges of combat along with unique techniques, why would'nt it be considered a unique traditional martial art? Now, if it borrows techniques from other styles in order to make its fighters more complete, that would qualify it as a form of MMA, in my humble opinion.

A few issues here. Starting at the end of your post it's an MMA of that sort by default that we have to fill in the gaps with what we know of European wrestling and biomechanics. All martial arts borrowed from other arts and cultures. Karate isn't a mixed martial art in the general view of the term, but it's history is quite mixed.

Moving on to the first part of the above quote, "why would'nt it be considered a unique traditional martial art?" Well, we're working on Ringen gaining acceptance as a martial art at all in an asian-art dominated world (BJJ had many similar struggles for legitimacy in the eyes of others, IIRC). The next item is that Ringen is no more a "traditional" martial art than pluderhosen are "traditional" German pants. A tradition implies that is was carried on over time into the (more or less) present. The "complete" Ringen was lost as personal weaponry improved (the Western art of ching-ching-bang-bang, as they say). Even now were are reconstructing it, trying to gain skill in it as we go. As individual skill improves so will our understanding of what Ringen can/could do.

I would be willing to bet that many other traditional martial arts also contained all three ranges, etc., once upon a time, but these things faded out as the need faded out. Ringen (and it's equivalents) are left to us in Boxing, Wrestling, etc...all of which survived for their sport qualities. The need for an art as brutal as the "complete" version of Ringen is honestly unnecessary for people in normal western life...and has been for quite some time.

I will also add that history and modern experience shows that those martial arts that are not sports also die out pretty quickly, lacking the proper motivation to train. That seems counter-intuitive, but most every soldier will admit that boxers train harder for a weekly bout in the ring than we do for war...even though all they get is a butt-whoopin' and we get killed (I'm a soldier, BTW, for context's sake). That's why the US Army Combatives program trains BJJ for level one--not because all fights go to the ground or because it's more militarily sound (I can give several reasons why it's not), but people *like* to train in it, so training gets done, and the effects have been seen in Iraq, etc.

You have taken BJJ classes? Under whom? This is a good hearted question BTW, I'm just curious ;p.

I took BJJ in college for 4 months, then US Army Combatives for the last year (I'm a level one instructor...which doesn't mean all that much, but it means that I can teach BJJ basics, etc.). I've fought lots of BJJ guys in Ringen practice, too. The BJJ advantage on the ground was generally minor, but it was present. OTOH, I'd never trained in pure Ringen groundwork--I just used the principles from standing Ringen on the ground, as Ringeck, a 15th C. master suggests. Ultimately a bent arm bar is a bent arm bar, whether you're "painting that mat" or "so brichst du sein arm."

In this, BJJ has a significant advantage in that it is presented in a technical fashion that appeals to our modern mindsets. Ringen isn't, thus some of the difficulties. See the thread on "Unterhalten," which is Ringen ground work, for examples of what I'm talking about (and examples of ringen on the ground in general. You'll find a lot of similarities to stuff you do on the mat, I'd wager).

In the standard BJJ class, there is no special treatment to beginners or masters. For example, at my studio, we start the session with stretching and weight training. Next we get to sparring right away. During sparring, everyone will be fighting someone completely random, with no discrimination. The littlest whitebelt will face the largest brown belt, should that be who our instuctor wants to spar. Basic and advanced techniques are then drilled right off the bat, regardless of if you are a first timer or not. We drill from the most basic kimura lock, to the complicated sweep from gaurd to omoplata. So, you comparing Ringen to "beginner and advanced" level BJJ classes doesn't make much sense to me, as I've been to many BJJ studios, and this way of training present at my studio is almost identical. Everyone spars at full strength using all techniques they know from day 1.

Oh, sure...us too. But first you learned arm-trap and roll (or whatever BJJ guys call it...I'm using Army terms here), passing the guard, shrimping, and dominant positions. Later you learned to put the knee in the back, etc. The Ringen texts generally deal with items like sweeps and knees-in-the-back/chest/groin...stuff that isn't usually taught directly in the first few weeks of BJJ in my (limited) exposure. Sure, you might pick it up in sparring/rolling/whatever from a sparring partner (just as any martial art that spends more time sparring than drilling), but I assure you that your teachers have some kind of hirearchy/curriculum in mind, even if it isn't obvious. You have to get fundamentals before moving onto techniques that incorporate past techniques' principles or motions.

The locks and chokes are cranked full strength and speed, which is why you have to tap as soon you are caught.

Same with us and Ringen. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

It took me 2 hours a day, 5 days a week, and 3 medals in competition to be promoted to blue belt, which is the first promotion after white. 2 months is lighting fast even so, it takes most people a year to earn their blue belt. I still have purple, brown, and black to go, under more stress for each belt, which I am more than happy to meet and exceed.

Congrats on your achievements and hard work. BJJ has another advantage over modern-day Ringen in the abundance of training partners and opportunities to compete/fight unknown elements. Lucky you guys.

The ARMA uses essentially a 4-level ranking system. Scholars are your new guys. General Free Scholars have been studying hard for about a year or more. Senior Free Scholars (guys like me, but in the longsword--not Ringen) have been put through some pretty grueling tests and are guaranteed to be skilled. After that is "Provost," which no one at present really holds (though a few of us SFSs are working on it). Currently no one has tested for SFS in Ringen, though we hope to see that change in the next year or two. This is a very, very young field of study and practice.

Also, could you provide me with an English translation of Ringen groundfighting techniques? I'd like to compare it to BJJ, and possibly put a few techniques into my repetoire should I find something suitable for myself.

There's a relatively muddy translation of several in the Unterhalten thread, as previously mentioned. Check it out. Also check out Keith P. Meyer's book "Medieval Hand to hand Combat." It may be out of print, but it used to be that you could get it online from Keith himself. It has some mistaken assumptions based on limited availability of materials when it was written, but it's a pretty good collection of the kinds of things found in Ringen. You won't find much new in there, but you may be suprised how much stuff you know is in there, and of the variety of techniques.

But I'm betting none of them know how to scissor sweep from gaurd to mount ;p.

No, but those techniques are easily inferred from related techniques in recorded Ringen Groundwork (called "Unterhalten")--which means that similar techniques almost certainly existed and were used, though their execution may have been slightly different (or not...that we can't really say at this point).

Funny you should mention this. When we are doing gi sparring (we do no-gi as well), he will give one of the opponent's in every match a rubber tube which stands for a knife. What ends up happening, is that the guy with the tube usually gets a "killing blow" when the fight is stand up. However, once the fight gets to the ground, the person with the "knife" is almost always at a disadvantage, because his opponent will naturally take control of the knife-hand's wrist and use his other hand to crank the knife-hand's shoulder, or twist the wrist to force the tube out of the hand.

A rubber tube will help some, yes, but without the panic and pain-reinforcement of something like a stun gun you really won't get it. I'd love to say otherwise (I generally train with rubber knives as well), but the difference is significant.

Interesting that you note the advantage that the armed guy has over the unarmed guy when standing. Ringen spends *a lot* of time nullyfying that advantage. In a recent bout with an experienced martial artist (not much of a grappler, alas) he had a rubber knife and I was unarmed. Using basic Ringen techniques I fended him off for quite some time, unable to get the lock I wanted to disarm him (I largely blame the rubber for this, as it's much harder to disarm a man's knife when it bends in your hand). Finally he came in close enough that I took it to the ground (using a takedown found in both Ringen and BJJ). We ended up after a moment's struggle with him in my guard. I extended my body to increase the range between us and easily executed the disarm that I had been trying from my feet the whole time. I "won" by stabbing him repeatedly with his own weapon.

When I went to the ground and into the guard my first thoughts were BJJ thoughts. But as soon as I had that dominant position I used nothing but Ringen to win the fight. This is completely in keeping with how Ringen works, although the names that I used for those positions and takedowns, in my head, were names I learned in Combatives and BJJ.

Now, to clarify,

In reply to:
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then you'd see some changes, and you'd have ringen in about 3 minutes (with "good" ringen after about 6 months).


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Sorry for the lack of English comprehension, but please elaborate on this point. I can't quite get what you're trying to get accross, sorry .

Necessity breeds ability. Getting shocked--which *really* hurts--changes what you're willing to do in a fight...especially when you never know when it's coming. It becomes a constant threat that you must always be prepared for--not something that is artificially "set up" by giving one guy a knife that the other guy knows about and which won't hurt if used. (I'm not knocking the practice...heck, I use it, but I also know that it isn't the same thing as that damn stun gun, which itself isn't even a real knife!)

As the need to cope with such a threat is an ever-present potential, the way that you approach the fight changes significantly. The rear-naked choke--a move so far undocumented in Ringen texts AFAIK although throws and breaks from behind are not--becomes a serious liability to the fighter executing the choke. Now the art is changing, and the change happens within minutes.

Keep this training philosophy up for a few months, and continue to add "real life" scenarios such as more than one opponent on either or both sides, and many of BJJ's approaches become obsolete, but Ringen's begin to shine. I don't know if you do this in your BJJ studio (it's very common practice in the Army), but we'll do "wars" with 10 or 20 to a side. Within seconds the advantage will irreversably move to one side or the other as the opportunity to double-team someone working on a time-consuming ground fight or choke-hold rears it's head after the first guy goes down. After that it's an exponentially fast road to the end for the losing side. This would speak *for* BJJ, except that the winning side is almost randomly determined by that fact that sheer luck will cause at least one guy to tap out pretty early on.

Ringen, however, because of it's emphasis on staying standing when possible and quick-and-dirty throws and breaks (submissions pushed to the limit IRL, but simulated in practice, of course), it's harder for buddies to get the jump on someone, and the fight doesn't collapse so quickly.

I'm not saying that one is better than the other here, but rather the simple inclusion of multiple parties and unknown weapons would quickly modify a great deal of BJJ into something very similar to Ringen in a very short time.

Mats and one-on-one bouts in a controlled enviornment might do the same for Ringen, turning it into something like BJJ (or, gasp, modern day wrestling) in a short time as well.

One question: in typical Ringen instruction, is there full-contact, resistant sparring?

Yes and no. You can't go full-on with many of it's throws and breaks for obvious reasons. Otherwise, yes. Those groups that spend a lot of time on Ringen go pretty hard at it, AFAIK. I know I do.

Jake

[david welch]

ROFLMAO!

The guide says:
"mostly harmless."

[Dave Nathan]

Ringen isn't really an individual art, either. It's several disciplines (as previously outlined). It is also one discipline set out of a much larger one

This is all you needed to say <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />. I was under the assumption that Ringen had developed techniques which it indoctrinated as "original to itself." But, I know jack crap about Ringen, and I'll take your word for it <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />.

I took BJJ in college for 4 months, then US Army Combatives for the last year (I'm a level one instructor...which doesn't mean all that much, but it means that I can teach BJJ basics, etc.). I've fought lots of BJJ guys in Ringen practice, too. The BJJ advantage on the ground was generally minor, but it was present. OTOH, I'd never trained in pure Ringen groundwork--I just used the principles from standing Ringen on the ground, as Ringeck, a 15th C. master suggests. Ultimately a bent arm bar is a bent arm bar, whether you're "painting that mat" or "so brichst du sein arm."

Good to hear about your experience. Did you ever get your bluebelt during that 4 months, or was it mostly casual no-gi work?

Interesting about your ground technique as well. Are the techniques in stand-up Ringen similar to techniques you'd find in say, boxing or Muay Thai? Also, what are Ringen's views on leg kicks?

Also, it's a common mistake for many people to think that the armbar is a BJJ original technique. The armbar, as you pointed out in the nifty little German (I think?) phrase, has been around for quite some time. It's in Daito Ryu Aikijujitsu, Judo, and even most forms of Northern Chinese Kung fu. It wouldn't be hard to think that it would be present in Western grappling styles as well.

In this, BJJ has a significant advantage in that it is presented in a technical fashion that appeals to our modern mindsets. Ringen isn't, thus some of the difficulties. See the thread on "Unterhalten," which is Ringen ground work, for examples of what I'm talking about (and examples of ringen on the ground in general. You'll find a lot of similarities to stuff you do on the mat, I'd wager).

I'd figure that there will be similarities to BJJ and Ringen on the mat. I've noticed a pattern with groundfighters: the better they get, the more similar they appear in style and form.

On a side note, make sure to show your Ringen buddies the triangle/armbar double attack, if you already haven't. (my favorite submission ;p)

Oh, sure...us too. But first you learned arm-trap and roll (or whatever BJJ guys call it...I'm using Army terms here), passing the guard, shrimping, and dominant positions. Later you learned to put the knee in the back, etc. The Ringen texts generally deal with items like sweeps and knees-in-the-back/chest/groin...stuff that isn't usually taught directly in the first few weeks of BJJ in my (limited) exposure. Sure, you might pick it up in sparring/rolling/whatever from a sparring partner (just as any martial art that spends more time sparring than drilling), but I assure you that your teachers have some kind of hirearchy/curriculum in mind, even if it isn't obvious. You have to get fundamentals before moving onto techniques that incorporate past techniques' principles or motions.

The arm trap and roll is still called an arm trap and roll <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />. A useful technique when your opponent tries to pass your gaurd without standing, such as in a near or far knee pass.

Also, all of the guy's who've signed up recently have missed out on a few techniques which were taught before they signed up. However, we go over techniques in our drills against compliant and resisting opponents, and even so, we can get in a few sweeps, ground control, defense, and submissions in before the next session starts. We get through all the techniques quickly (I'd say we go through all the techniques in anywhere from a month to 2 months, for the guys that go every day), so we get plenty of time to learn a technique and memorize it well. It's good to hear that you guys spar a lot as well. Arts that claim to be "too deadly to spar with" are always immediate turn-offs for me.

The ARMA uses essentially a 4-level ranking system. Scholars are your new guys. General Free Scholars have been studying hard for about a year or more. Senior Free Scholars (guys like me, but in the longsword--not Ringen) have been put through some pretty grueling tests and are guaranteed to be skilled. After that is "Provost," which no one at present really holds (though a few of us SFSs are working on it). Currently no one has tested for SFS in Ringen, though we hope to see that change in the next year or two. This is a very, very young field of study and practice.

That's very interesting. How well do you think you guys would do against kendo or escrima/kali/arnis (same thing nearly lol) practictioners in a weapons only spar? I've crap at all experience with actual weapons, other than the fact that I'm a very avid fencer (I have a really good epee), and I'll try to hang with the kendo guys that use the local 24 Hour Fitness. They always end up hitting me quite hard <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" />. I'm not familiar with western sword arts, sadly <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" />.

Necessity breeds ability. Getting shocked--which *really* hurts--changes what you're willing to do in a fight...especially when you never know when it's coming. It becomes a constant threat that you must always be prepared for--not something that is artificially "set up" by giving one guy a knife that the other guy knows about and which won't hurt if used. (I'm not knocking the practice...heck, I use it, but I also know that it isn't the same thing as that damn stun gun, which itself isn't even a real knife!)

I'd figure getting shocked might make someone react differently, lol. The rubber tubes we use aren't too elastic, but they are thick, heavy, and about 9 inches long. They hurt. The first time we sparred with them, I had my 5th and 6th ribs bruised lol, which qualified me as "dead." We actually learned a couple of disarms which are taken right from Krav Maga.

As the need to cope with such a threat is an ever-present potential, the way that you approach the fight changes significantly. The rear-naked choke--a move so far undocumented in Ringen texts AFAIK although throws and breaks from behind are not--becomes a serious liability to the fighter executing the choke. Now the art is changing, and the change happens within minutes.

Yeah, the arms and side are quite open in an RNC. However, it only takes 8 seconds average after constriction of the carotid arteries for your average man to be put to sleep. Realistically, I think he'd be under way too much emotional stress from being in the choke to focus on anything except getting that arm away from the neck. This has been shown in our sparring bouts, and it's quite an interesting phenomena: when the guy with the tube gets put into the RNC, he almost subconsciouslly drops the tube and immediately works to alleviate the pressure or the carotids. It's weird, even the instructor did it when one of the brown belts get him in the RNC while he had the tube.

When I went to the ground and into the guard my first thoughts were BJJ thoughts. But as soon as I had that dominant position I used nothing but Ringen to win the fight. This is completely in keeping with how Ringen works, although the names that I used for those positions and takedowns, in my head, were names I learned in Combatives and BJJ.

Interesting. I'll have to study up a bit on Ringen's offensive grappling from superior positions then. When I'm in a superior position, namely, the mount, sidemount, knee on belly, in half gaurd, or north-south, the kimura and armbar are always the first option. Of course, there is the fancy crap like the leg-crucifix from mount, or roll to kneebar from north-south (SO cool).

[Jaron Bernstein]

I took 6 months of BJJ a while back. The class was as you described: 5 days a week, 2 hours a day and everyone rolls with everyone. That speaks very well for the art as well as the fact that a "belt" in BJJ really means something since you have to really prove your skills in competion against resisting opponents. I learned a lot and was very impressed. I would say that BJJ has some problems in the multiple opponent and armed opponent areas, but if you are alone with your opponent and he can't ground fight, he is toast. My first class I got tapped out many times very fast. And this was with many years of striking and throwing training. <img src="/forum/images/icons/blush.gif" alt="" />

I would tell you that ringen has a number of techniques described in the manuals that sound a hell of a lot like BJJ groundwork and cite some if you have an interest.

The issue is that as others here have said, we are very much ressurecting this art from its essential saltes. So it will take to time to get our guys up to the skill in groundwork that a BJJ guy would have now. OTOH, WMA is very good in integrating all ranges, from sword to halfswording, to standing grappling/striking/throws to groundwork in ways that pure BJJ is not. It is in that sense the original european MMA.

[M Wallgren]

Interesting about your ground technique as well. Are the techniques in stand-up Ringen similar to techniques you'd find in say, boxing or Muay Thai? Also, what are Ringen's views on leg kicks?

So far in my Ringen studys I have not found any kicks in the Southeastern Asian way. They are mor like stomps, directed to knees and ankels. There is also some pushkicks directed at the groin and back (a bit like maigeri, sp?, from the karate)

The strikes are more common, but are mostly used as deflecting actions or harrasing to get you in possition to get close and finish. A little diffence to modern fighting is that it seems the masters had a lot of defences agains Hammerstrokes. If this means that they were common (as I belive) or if they were ther because the technics then could be used against both armed and unarmed attacks I´m unsertan of. Overal the striking seems a little more straight forward , not so many hooks and uppercuts and such, also they seem to hit with their fist more verticaly (with the thumb on top) and not horisotaly as in modern styles.

That's very interesting. How well do you think you guys would do against kendo or escrima/kali/arnis (same thing nearly lol) practictioners in a weapons only spar? I've crap at all experience with actual weapons, other than the fact that I'm a very avid fencer (I have a really good epee), and I'll try to hang with the kendo guys that use the local 24 Hour Fitness. They always end up hitting me quite hard . I'm not familiar with western sword arts, sadly .

To answer this somewhat more "Open Research Forum" question I refer to the exellent sparring videos from ARMA Hong Kong. Check out the OR Forum...

Martin

[philippewillaume]

hello, dave
As opposed to my Arma colleagues i just works from one source
Sigmund ringeck:
and that is what he says about the strikes

Von mort stossen: der erst.
About the murder stike the first
Greyff den man an mitt der lincken hand ober der gürtel, wo du wilt. Domitt stoß in mitt diner gerechten hand zugeschlossene (73 v )mitt kröfften ansin hertz. Do mitt greyff ain ringen, so es dir beste werden mag, vnnd folgdem ringen mitt brüchen vnd wider brüchen. Die selben bruch vnd widerbruch thu in allen ringen: zu rosß, zu füssen, gewäpnet oder bloß, zu lauffens, ligend oder vffstendig.

Grab/attack the man with the left hand above the belt, where you whish/want. At the same time with the hand appropriately (gerechten substantive form of gerechter ?) /or right hand closed/locked strike at his heart. Then engage him with a wrestling you may think is the best. An follow up with the breaks and counter breaks (if wider is wider=against it is possible to be more breaks wider = wieder but less likely) the same break and counter-breaks done in all the wrestling: on horse by foot, armed (as in armoured) or naked (as in with normal clothes), getting at each other, standing/couching or raising up (ligen can have the idea of accepting the technique as in blending with it and raising up to go against.)

Basically they are used in the way we use atemi in aikido at that difference that you it purposefully where it hurts in Ringen.
As far as I can tell there is open hand and closed fist strike and not that much kick but there is knee. I believe the idea is really to hit as hard and quick as you can.

I think you may very well be running after a mystical beast, I am afraid that there is no such think as the best/most effective martial art.

In aikido and Ringen, I have spared with wing tchung, taekwondo (we have an instructor in our club), jujitsu, shotokan karate (one 1st dan and 3 rd dan)
And I won some, I lost some and we double kill some.
What I am trying to get at it is, you that is making the difference, the art you practice is just the mean by witch you are making the difference.

Philippe

[JeffGentry]

Hey Martin

A little diffence to modern fighting is that it seems the masters had a lot of defences agains Hammerstrokes. If this means that they were common (as I belive) or if they were ther because the technics then could be used against both armed and unarmed attacks

I was talking to Aaron Pennenburg about this while driving to class this weekend, The hammer strike is a pwerful strike and it does work with our type of stepping footwork as opposed to the boxing type footwork(punch and pivot your hips).

I am of the opinion that is the case, A five year hold will hit there sibling using a hammer strike then they get older and people say they hit like a girl and then they learn to straight punch and never go back.

IMHO

Jeff

[Gene Tausk]

LAST WARNING

This thread is one post away from being shut down. Get off the personal snipes and keep it on track.


---------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
SFS
Director - ARMA Southside Houston Study Group

[Jake_Norwood]

Hey Gene.

I don't think that there's too much personal snipes going on here, and it's certainly not out of control. There's some excellent discussion going on here, and problems with individuals should be taken up individually, IMO. This is an important discussion, and something that any Ringen practicioner is going to have to deal with. Best do it here and now and cover our bases in written discussion.

Jake

[Jake_Norwood]

That's very interesting. How well do you think you guys would do against kendo or escrima/kali/arnis (same thing nearly lol) practictioners in a weapons only spar? I've crap at all experience with actual weapons, other than the fact that I'm a very avid fencer (I have a really good epee), and I'll try to hang with the kendo guys that use the local 24 Hour Fitness. They always end up hitting me quite hard . I'm not familiar with western sword arts, sadly .

In my experience, now that I'm a more experienced fighter, I pretty much always dominate. Pretty much. It depends greatly on the tools and rules used, of course. I recall getting beaten when I was a year into longsword by a 5-year kendo guy. No suprise there. I also remember trying a german move with a shinai, and watching in horror as it flew away from me because I had relied on a pommel that wasn't there.

My belief, after searching around a bit, is that the "German stuff" is a better form of armed combat, but not for most of the reasons that folks would expect. I think that the weapon is superior, and I think that it's design lead to superior techniques. I think that the build of the average german had a lot to do with both the weapon and the techniques formed. I happen to match that build (I'm 2nd Generation Austrian), and I find that my body moves well under this system--something that many western Kendo practicioners cannot say.

Please understand that I'm not knocking those other disciplines, but rather sharing my experiences and my belief as to their explanation.

Jake