ReMA vs. MMA

[Rey Garcia]

Hey Guys .. First lets start by looking at ringen and flower of battles and comparing them to EMA tecniques . If you have studied and did side by side comparisons to hapkido,jiu jitsu and or judo submissions you will find striking similarities.If you then compare them to pankration ,catch wrestling or shoot wrestling you will again find them all to be in most cases exactly the same .Why? The answer is simple they are. and the reason is this everybody has two arms and two legs. As William Shakespere said "A rose by any other name does smell as sweet"Since man first picked up a club there has been always been someone trying to figure out a way to take it away from him. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> Now you have to put everything into context .The arts that were written down ema or wma were for armored warriors fighting other armored warriors.I will start with bujitsu (warrior arts) of japan .1st there were no belts. 2. there was no sparring only kata(forms) and 1 step training and 3. they were about killing somone in the course of defending or storming a castle or large scale combat . In the case of jiu jitsu it was all about freeing yourself and or disableing your opponent so you could bring your dagger into play ,draw your sword or otherwise kill him quickly. Now look at the wma manuals on grappling (got the picture). Same thing ! As times change people changed with them ie judo than bjj . as peole stopped wearing swords these arts developed into mano a mano sports , with the swords kendojutsu became kendo .Waster practice evolved into sports fenciing, pankration became boxing and wrestling. than catch wrestling and shoot wrestling. Ok now that we have history 101 out of the way lets move ont the question of the moment how would a wma do against ema sumission or or mma. Again i'll have go back because of the very nature of the fighting systems as you recall jui jitsu developed int judo .Why? Because if you follow through an arm breaking teqnique ie your opponents arm over your sholder (see flower of battles) you are going to very quickly find no one wants to practice with you . <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" /> So by their very nature you cant do them full speed (just ask our founder (sorry john) ) so other thcniques were developed as the became further developed the ground game became also more developed ie kosen judo (submissino judo) of which maeda was a master (see no one is sticking you with a knife ) (maeda taught the gracies ) and in the east pankration (old olympics ) was mma wrestling and boxing one of the greatest pankration fighters we are told won over 200 matches (mostly by breakin his opponents fingers) again no knives were alowed (it would have been hard to hide them anyway as the combatents were required to fight nude) and developed into modern freestyle wrestling. MMA artists practice dilligenly 3,4 .somtimes 5 or six times a week day in day out for years crosstraining and sparring against other opponents who are doing the same as we can see guys like yoshida ,nestula ,gracies EMA and guys like the shamrocks ,coture ,militech have show that head to head ther all pretty well evenly matched but if you thind tht from studying the fectbuch's or juijitsu from a manuel your going to be able to grapple with them on an equal level I'll say this goto your nearest judo/bjj or wrestling school and call sombody out .but I'd suguest you bring a sword. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> Rey Garcia SI ARMA
world masters hvwt judo champion / east coast judo champion /empire state judo champion /2x east coast karate champion / 5 and 0 hvwt kickboxing champion

[Jake_Norwood]

Yeah, I'll support that.

Jake

[david welch]

Jake_Norwood said:

First, don't worry about the other Dave. We're good buddies, and he doesn't mean any harm (or very little). Just not a fan of BJJ is all.

Jake, really, I understand how you could think that but for the record, I like BJJ. It has it's place... especially for us in practicing and drills.

When we want to work on our ringen locks, for example, it is a lot safer to work the standing stuff on the ground. It keeps someone that has his partner locked from getting thrown in the process and breaking an arm, yanking out a shoulder, etc. When you do ringen on the ground, it looks a lot like BJJ. When you do BJJ submissions standing, it looks a lot like ringen.

What I don't like is for it to be taken out of context. I see it as a part of training in a combat art... but not a combat art in and of itself.

To me, it would be like saying I test cut a lot and I am good at it, so I would be good in combat as a swordsman even though I don't spar with padded swords and don't drill with wasters.

I like BJJ, I just see it in a context.


Rey Garcia said:

MMA artists practice dilligenly 3,4 .somtimes 5 or six times a week day in day out for years crosstraining and sparring against other opponents who are doing the same as we can see guys like yoshida ,nestula ,gracies EMA and guys like the shamrocks ,coture ,militech have show that head to head ther all pretty well evenly matched but if you thind tht from studying the fectbuch's or juijitsu from a manuel your going to be able to grapple with them on an equal level I'll say this goto your nearest judo/bjj or wrestling school and call sombody out

Two questions about what you wrote. I am really trying not to be confrontational about this, and if I seem that way I apologize in advance.

First, are you just assuming nobody here practices our art at all? Do you think that only MMA people practice at speed, with full contact and with intent?

Second, I know an Olympic level boxer that could beat someone "that has studied MMA and BJJ from a manual". Do you think that is a valid comparison from which to base the effectiveness of MMA and BJJ?

[Jay Vail]

Well said, Rey.

[Rey Garcia]

Hi dave No offence taken and none given
Let me try to clarify myself .
First im not saying that that you arent practicing . What Im trying to say is that the more dangerous tecniques cant be practiced at full speed and power with intent .
I'll quote from Fiore"Wrestling needs seven things, which are: physical strength, agility of feet and arms, advantageous holds, breaks, ties and percussions and injuries, according to what you will see in the painted figures, particularly in techniques that will gain holds, each one with its own knowledge and cunning. Because, in techniques that are only for practice, the holds are "holds of love", and not "holds of anger". Regarding the art of wrestling to gain holds, sometimes you do it for anger and sometimes for your life, and these are techniques that you can't practice with courtesy, even if they are techniques dangerous to practice. And here you will find Wrestling on foot to gain holds, and again holds made for practice. Note "hold's of love not holds of anger."Fiore here is saying the intent is not to injure you're partner(be carefull) . Furter he says "these are techniques that you can't practice with courtesy, even if they are techniques dangerous to practice."
I'll try to illustrate this ( http://www.varmouries.com/wildrose/fiore/fiore.html) from Fiores Flower of Battles) section:dagger page 8 plate 4"You'll feel that over my right shoulder
I won't fail to break your left arm. I use this as an example because it clearly and graficly states what the intent is and also because this is a popular jiu-jitsu tecnique However it is impossible to practice at full speed and power with the intention of breaking your partners arm (unless of course he owe's you money <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> . This is a combat tehnique pure and simple. However in the judo style of the tehnique(Ippon Seionage) (one Arm Sholder Throw) the arm of the student(uke) is not placed on the masters sholder) it is locked in between the masters(tori) bicep and forarm and the hand is turned palm down so the sholder or elbow will not dislocate and the student is thrown to the floor with force.(the harder he lands the higher the score) But the intent is to NOT injure .
I hope that clear's up what I intended to say .
As for the second part "I know an Olympic level boxer that could beat someone "that has studied MMA and BJJ from a manual". Do you think that is a valid comparison from which to base the effectiveness of MMA and BJJ? " That's was the point I was trying to make .No one can know the validity of fighting without sparring and combat .There are somethings you cant learn from a book . Its also the very reason I joined ARMA ,An art must be practice not only from an academic standpoint but in its live form be it grappling or swordsmanship. In the case of swordsmanship Forms,waster practice,test cutting,pell practice and finally sparring with padded weapons that as close as saftey will allow have the same dimentions weight and balance of the real thing.
I hope I ve been able to clear up what I was trying say .
Thanks for taking the time to read and respond to my ramblings <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
Be just and fear not .
And remember my favorite maxims:
Box a wrestler ,wrestle a boxer and dont bring a knife to a gun fight. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />


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[JeffGentry]

Hey Rey

An art must be practice not only from an academic standpoint but in its live form be it grappling or swordsmanship. In the case of swordsmanship Forms,waster practice,test cutting,pell practice and finally sparring with padded weapons that as close as saftey will allow have the same dimentions weight and balance of the real thing.

That is basicly how this thread started, Martin and Myself think that the local MMA tournament might be a good place to "test" our training, skill and technique's, against a fully resistant opponent, were one is not going to be arrested.

It is not a question of this is better than that or about being a UFC, Pride FC, or any other "Big Time" MMA champion it may be a good way to supplemant or enhance our own effort's, we would need to be careful not to inject thing's that don't exist in the fight book's just for the sake of winning.

Most of the small local event's i've seen have an ameture division were you have training that is minimal or have not fought much.

Because, in techniques that are only for practice, the holds are "holds of love", and not "holds of anger". Regarding the art of wrestling to gain holds, sometimes you do it for anger and sometimes for your life, and these are techniques that you can't practice with courtesy, even if they are techniques dangerous to practice.

This is something we also need to keep in mind is not to stop practicing the "hold's of Anger", we just have to not take them ot the full extenet in practice.

Myself and my main practice partner do take these to the limit alot "without courtesy", I mean to were we have to go down fast or tap or we risk breaking something, yes we are taking a chance we have worked together for almost a year now and know each other fairly well so the danger is much less than if say you and i were to try some of these hold's having never met, i would do it i would want to go slow for awhile though.

There are somethings you cant learn from a book . Its also the very reason I joined ARMA ,An art must be practice not only from an academic standpoint but in its live form be it grappling or swordsmanship

I think until we in ARMA come up with a format to do the Grappling in a manner as realisticly as you can in MMA we realy don't have much of chance to get full speed sparring as much as we can.

alway's remember everyone has a plan in a fight until they get hit.



Jeff

[Rey Garcia]

Go for it ! The amatuer division is where you can see what works 4 real . Also in free practice where you can try different tecniques .
All Im saying is be carefull with the dangerous stuff.
I dont want to see anyone get (severly hurt) .a little hurt is OK
Practice &amp; Manuels = Training
Free Practice = Experimentation in the Lab
Contact or Tournaments = The Test
Incidently contests = Legal Assault <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

Be Just and Fear Not

[JeffGentry]

Hey Rey

Practice &amp; Manuels = Training
Free Practice = Experimentation in the Lab
Contact or Tournaments = The Test
Incidently contests = Legal Assault

This is my thinking on it also am not a big fan of jail time.

I have along way to go in my unarmed training before i enter any thing, i would like to though.

Jeff

[david welch]

An art must be practice not only from an academic standpoint but in its live form be it grappling or swordsmanship. In the case of swordsmanship Forms,waster practice,test cutting,pell practice and finally sparring with padded weapons that as close as saftey will allow have the same dimentions weight and balance of the real thing.

In Knoxville, our goal right now is to pretty much to take that and use the "ARMA theory" to make a way to learn grappling.

We are going to break ringen down into the largest chunks we can safely do, and hope that training in the chunks will be a close equivalent to ringen, just like we hope training with wasters, padded sparring swords, test cutting and blunts would give you the approximation of skills you would get by actually using a real sword in combat.

We need a way to practice standup grappling, submissions, weapons access, and the combat stuff that is too dangerous to try for real.

Starting with the last, it is easy enough to work on our setup and entrance to the technique and then finish the throw or break on the dummy. But this is just a "bite". A drill.

Going to the first, That is the "Structure for ringen sparring " that we are working on. But that will still just be a part of it. A drill.

For the submissions part, BJJ or something like that is an excellent way to work on them. But that would just be a part. It would be how you drill them.

My only concern is that someone will loose sight that what they are doing is a drill, start gaming it, and assume their "gamed drill" would actually tell how well they are doing.

Case in point, if I am using BJJ ground work as a training tool to work on my standing submissions, but start to dominate the drill because I am going to the guard, I have to realize I couldn't do that standing up.

But, I also know that you could take any of the drills, game them in a way that doesn't translate to ringen, and basically make a sport out of one. That is what needs to be recognized and avoided, if we are doing it with padded wasters or wrestling.

[JeffGentry]

Hey David

My only concern is that someone will loose sight that what they are doing is a drill, start gaming it, and assume their "gamed drill" would actually tell how well they are doing.

See that is where i think the local MMA competition as the test come's into play there is no gaming it there, the only thing with that is if we start using MMA as ringen.

It would be easy to do, care would need to be taken because alot of the MMA is very similar.


It is the mindset and philosphy of our manuel's we need to remember so we don't make it "sport".


Jeff

[Jaron Bernstein]

" I'm not familiar with western sword arts, sadly"

Think of this as MMA with swords and daggers thrown in.
<img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

The challenge is that we are reconstucting these art from the manuals. Imagine if you will that BJJ falls out of use and memory in the next 10 years. 400 years from now someone finds a library of BJJ books, and then tries to recreate the art from those books (no video for this argument at least) without any gracies around to teach it. It CAN be done (and is being done for ringen) but it is a slower process.

[Mike Cartier]

with all this interest in MMA i thought you guys might appreciate this site I found on the web with a bunch of fight videos. They won't last there long so view them or Download them soon...

MMA Videos

[Jeremy Martin]

As I've noted from the different martial arts I've taken/viewed and has been said by many a wise teacher, "There's only so many ways you can throw a punch."

I'm sure that 90% of the moves you find in one you can probably find in the other. Sure, it may come from different time periods and different countries but we're all just human and the stuff that really works in one place is the stuff that really works everywhere else. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

So I agree with the poster(s) that said it all comes down to individual skill.

Besides, I've trained with Batman and I would totally win anyway so all your arguing is really moot.

[JeanryChandler]

I'm completely inexperienced at BJJ or any Eastern Marital art. I did grow up in the French Quarter in New Orleans and I've seen about 1,000 fights. I notice the most important things are numbers, surprise, quick thinking and situational awareness.

I've seen guys fight their way out of very bad situations by thinking fast on their feet.

I've seen tons of kung fu and Karate guys get beat, few who were actually badass except for one vietnamese kid and one really scary biker bouncer at this bar called Mollies. Boxers can be good street fighters but often arent. Wrestlers are dangerous. But thinking outside of the box can save you. I beat a lot of guys who were on their way to putting me into an choke hold or arm lock by quickly cracking their head against the ground, a nearby wall, or (my personal favorite) a iron balcony pole, (very common in the French Quarter). You can make a very, very angry person totally calm down with like 3 or maybe 4 bangs of their head against cement or iron.

Another good one (reccomended for emergencies only) seems to be to push somebody into traffic. Just from observation.

The 'glassgow kiss' is also very helpful, especially in surprise.

Stun guns and mace seem to be great offensive weapons but pretty lousy for defense. Cattle prods are more effective. Brass knuckles are a lot more effective. Knives seem to cause injuries which dont have any effect in the fight even if they turn out very serious or even fatal later. Guns part the crowds like Moses did the red sea.

Jake, did you guys really practice grappling with a stun gun as you described? Lol!

Jeanry

[Mike Cartier]

I have always enjoyed watching people in hand to hand combat, i always stop to watch people fighting (and apply encouragement).
I've seen quite a few karate / kung fu guys get thier asses whooped myself. But there are badasses in every art, if they apply what they learn in the proper environment and keep an open mind. Add a little technique to an experienced street fighter and he becomes very dangerous. But i have seen alot of pure street fighters get taken to town by boxers because the strret fighters had a one dimensional game and couldn't take the fight out of the phase that the boxer wanted to fight in. All depends on the guys involved and how they train really. The attitude of the guys fighting is as important as what they train, if they are dead set to injure you at any cost they more than likely will.