Jake's new toy

[Casper Bradak]

It's good to know that the blade is authentic. What I think he meant about it working as a "cutting weapon" is, does it hold up properly if struck, beaten, bound, or when doing the same?

[KatherineJohnson]

I got one of these aswell and I concur with the sentimate that they seem safer for sparring then a waster. Even in the thrust being that these seem quite flexible and would have give that a waster lacks. Albeit it would be wise to wear some kind of fencing mask.

Due to the hilt heavy design ( the opposite of your standard waster) they dont seem to carry much impact force and you have exceptional control over the blade to pull contact if need be.

I havent gotten to use it in winding and binding exercises as of yet but I am really looking forward to it and maybe some light sparring.


Kat

[david welch]

Does that sound about right, David?

Sure does.

We just got in from practicing with these thing for about 4 hours, and I took several hits to the bare hands that would have finished my day with a wooden waster. They didn't even hurt.

We didn't spar with them, but we practiced drilling with intent and a speed the whole time and they are holding up just fine.

The consensus in Knoxville is that our wasters are going to be reserved from now on for when we have guests.

[Shane Smith]

I agree Mike, the blade does look a bit unsubstantial. I understand the purpose but it looks rather delicate. How do they seem to be holding up for you in blunt freeplay Jake or anyone else that has them?

[Brian Hunt]

Let me interject here,

that these swords match dimensions from museum pieces that I have some measurements of, curtousy of Bart. My current understanding is that they were primarily used in the fencing schools. Mair used them, Meyer used them, etc. They were used by both the Marxbruder and the Federfechter guilds. Therefore it is an accurate training weapon. As far as the thickness of the blade, in my past, I have done a lot of "rapier" fencing with schlager blades and I have never seen one of those break, and they are only a little over a 1/2 inch wide. Plus, you can bind and wind with a schlager, so I assume that there would be no problems here as well. I like the idea of a steel sword that I can go nearly full out with. With a padded jack, a mask, gorget, male or female protection, and gloves. I bet these would be a great deal of fun. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

just my thoughts on this.

Brian Hunt
GFS.

P.S. Jake, do you have the contact for the guy who made these for you and the price? I may want to save up for a couple of them.

[david welch]

Arms and Armor sells something similar here:

http://www.armor.com/2000/catalog/item187.html

But it is way expensive, and I don't know how good it is.

[Brian Hunt]

Thanks David,

I knew about that one, but found it to be a bit on the expensive side for what it is. Worst case scenario, I will have to get my project list caught up and add forging a couple of these to it, which would mean I would have to finish building my gas forge, and my power hammer . . . Too many projects, too little time. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks.

Brian Hunt
GFS.

[Derek Wassom]

Hmm. I just finished an article about my trip to the Landesmuseum in Zurich, and these don't look much like the feders I handled there.

[Shane Smith]

Can you post a pic of one of those that you handled for comparisons sake Derek?

[Jake_Norwood]

These swords were made off of Bart's measurements, actually, IIRC (which I may not). I do still have contact with the guy that made them, but I have some resevations about ordering from him again. It was an enormous pain in the butt, and I think that the temper along the stark of these models is softer than is should be (admittedly, it's just a "feel" thing and not something I can back up with numbers). One of the ARMA Poland study groups used them for several months and did manage to break a few, so I believe they moved on to another maker.

What I would like to do is find a slightly higher quality smith and have him make some of these, based perhaps off of the models that we recieved from "Kuznia Rycerska" in Poland (i.e. the ones we are discussing now).

For the money, however, I can't really complain. I got a pair of them for about $350, which is the price of the upcoming "Mair" from the Maestro Line at Albion (which may be the direction I go with this).

They have held up to my abuse thus far, but I don't have Stew trying to break them (or me) anymore, either. And the control is phenomenal. Unbelievable, really. I can do stuff that I've seen in the manuals, but really struggled with with a waster. No problem now. (I'll also add that these things seem "safer" than the "Mair" on account of the thinner blade's lesser mass.)

I will add that, as with any steel weapon, the guard is a little dangerous--one of my practice partners hit himself in the hip with his own guard on a deflection, and had a significant bruse there for some time. More caution is needed when closing or coming to grips (at least until we climatize to the things).

Whatever the case, if we can get someone to make these things for around the same price ($150-200), then they could *almost* replace wasters as *the* training tool of choice for intermediate and advanced students.

Jake

[Bill Welch]

Jake Norwood wrote
"Also, that spatulated tip is there to make the potential of thrusts safer than if the whole blade was that thin. I wonder if "back in the day" they didn't cover that part in leather, too, for added saftey. I've thought about it, and I bet that it would not only work, but that it would move the balance out to where we'd expect it in a steel sharp of that length."

Well, Last night I made leather covers for the ends of our feather swords, and it has made the thrust much, much safer. I let my wife jab me pretty hard with the thing and it hurts but doesn't even leave a red mark. So for safty It has made a big difference. It could still put an eye out, but it shouldn't kill you (well exept for the eye thing);), unless you got a good shot to the throat.
It doesn't seem to change the balance more than a 1/2 to 3/4 on an inch, and adds only about 1 or 2 ozs. So the little leather covers are a great idea thanks Jake, also for the swords, and everything else.(so long and thanks for all the fish.)

[Derek Wassom]

I know that pictures can be misleading, but the feders I examined seem much more substantial. The middle of the blade is almost an inch wide, and .38 inches thick, and I would feel comfortable with using it like any other blunt.

[Jake_Norwood]

No, you're right, Derek. Not all feders were like this--but these are, and they're historical. One design of many and all that.

Jake

[david welch]

Ours are about 3/4 inch at the base and taper to 1/2 inch before the spatula, and are about 1/4 and taper to 1/8 before the spatula.

One other note we realised from using them... the big square ricasso. We thought it was to balance the sword out, but we were curious because you could do it other ways, since it is at the balance point.

Turns out, ARMA Knoxville is now of the opinion that in keeping with these being training swords... the ricasso are actually big giant thumb protectors. <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[Casper Bradak]

Great insight!