New Film Opportunity

[Allen Johnson]

ill pass the word on to the screenwriter <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> Had several meetings the last few days. Theres going to be some head butting...one of the armourers wants to put Alfred in red, leather, scale armour...i may be off but i was pretty certainl no lamellar or scale reached western europe till after the first crusade. We'll see...

[DavidEvans]

Lamellar and scale had reached the area by at least the 10th for definite. Don't forget the steady stream of Vikings and various Nordic types to serve in the east

[TimSheetz]

Maybe,

but why bother with a scale and lamellar LEATHER armor?

It sounds like a lot of extra work for no additional armor value. Might as well just throw a couple of layers of leather on a a jacket and get more armor value out of it.

[JeanryChandler]

Holmgang is a type of formal Viking duel.

My $.02? Dont have the weapons cut or thrust through armor. Armor works (worked). Most injuries showing up in the bones of Vikings and just after the Viking era (notably at Wisby) show injuries in places like the lower left leg, under the 'hem' of the byrnie and under the shield. Thats why vikings called their swords thigns like 'leg biter', 'face splitter', 'foot cutter' and etc.

Viking shields on the other hand were quite light and got torn up pretty quickly according to the sagas.

Also, viking swords are fairly light, please dont put 15 lb weapons in the hands of the actors like they did in to Arnie in Conan. Those swords should probably be under 3 lbs, down to as little as 2.

Dont forget missile weapons, especially javelins.

Dont use too much napalm. I hate how they do that to try to make ancient warfare relate to modern expectations.

Fight on the sea if possible! (I know that might be difficult to arrange)

Dont forget duels and viking leaders calling each other out before battles...

And have fun!

Jeanry

[JeanryChandler]

I agree about the lamellar, dont like the idea. If lamellar was used it would be like the "klibanion", a vest of METAL lamellar (iron probably or maybe brass) over mail. If you want to make his armor more impressive, give him a cool helmet or face mask.

Which brings me to another point, if at all possible, keep the actors helmets on in combat!

DB

[Casper Bradak]

but why bother with a scale and lamellar LEATHER armor?

It sounds like a lot of extra work for no additional armor value. Might as well just throw a couple of layers of leather on a a jacket and get more armor value out of it.

If it's hardened it won't flex, and scale or lamellar also overlaps, providing the additional protection, at least from most angles/engles.

[Kirk Siemsen]

Perhaps the only way to make it more realistic is to have no choreography! I guess just make sure that the "right" side wins? And please make sure that there are multiple opponents, and not this crowd "attacking one at a time" thing...geesh...

[Allen Johnson]

Well unfortunatley most actors (in any sword mocie) have never used a sword before, so choreography is a must. but the challenge is to make is look like its not. Saftey is always #1 priority. Its a big reason why most films now are using aluminum and rubber weapons.

[TimSheetz]

Caspar,

that seems to make sense... but can you really see them using leather of the appropriate thickness or hardness?

Plus, reality being what it is, that stuff will soften up over time. I wouldn't prefer it.

Peace,

Tim

[Allen Johnson]

I did some reading where it was said mail stopped sword cuts well enough (which i think we all agree on) but thrown and heavily thrusted spears were able to kill a man though his mail. Yea or nay? Your thoughts...

[Jake_Norwood]

We had some video footage--probably now lost--from the Meyer event in Knoxville last year with lots of cutting against welded mail, with little-to-no effects. Thrusts were better, but not much. Axes did a good job, but the spear--especially when thrown--blew clean through the mail consistently.

Jake

[Stacy Clifford]

You can see the effects of a half-sword thrust against mail in Matt and Shane's article on armored combat here:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/armoredlongsword.html

[Bill Welch]

Jake, that footage was shot by George Turner, he may still have it.

[Allen Johnson]

Thanks! I really think that is something we will use in the battles. Thats great stuff on the halfsword too.

[JeanryChandler]

lots of cutting against welded mail, with little-to-no effects. Thrusts were better, but not much. Axes did a good job, but the spear--especially when thrown--blew clean through the mail consistently.

Yeah, and dont forget, mail is more effective in terms of resisting penetration with the gambeson underneath

It's interesting to me how thrown spears seem to penetrate so much better than thrusts. Maybe thats why they seem to always throw spears in the Viking Sagas rather than thrusting with them. There was a Viking re-enactment group in Europe who did some experiments with mail armor and shields, and they reported that the javelin had the best penetration of any weapon they tried: swords, daggers, saxes, lances, thrusting spears, halberds, (swung) axes, thrown axes, slings, and bows...

They also reported similar results to ARMA in the effectiveness of mail against cuts and most thrusts from swords.

Jeanry