What would be useful (and legal) In SCA games?

[Lorraine Munoa]

I have many freinds who enjoy the just-for-fun sport-sparring done in the SCA, but thing is, they have rules. If i were to join them for a few friendly rounds, what techniques do we have that are most useful, especially against those huge sheilds they like, and still "legal"?

[Matthew_Anderson]

Well that's just it, many of the techniques that might be very effective aren't legal in SCA combat. One of the most vulnerable targets on an opponent using a large shield is the forward leg below the knee.This would be "off target" in the SCA. Since they know they can't be struck from the knee down, or in the hands, there is no grappling allowed, and the weapons they use aren't very realistic simulators, most fighters learn to take advantage of the rule structure and develop a style and set of tactics that would be much less effective than they would without all the rules. That's why most of us aren't really interested in SCA fighting, it's just too contrived. Why not invite your SCA friends to spar ARMA style instead? <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Allen Johnson]

I've noticed that alot of SCA fighters vary from place to place. I noticed here that the ones that use great/longsword mainly fight holding their stick completley vertical. Only striking downward in an almost kendo style attack. Didnt see a single real guard being used. A simple displacement followed by some quick zwerch's should fix that quite nicely. I'd be willing to bet most dont know or understand the meisterhau, which is almost always effective.

[Jake_Norwood]

The problem is that with longer weapons you can't strike along an arc of 90 degrees, if I'm not mistaken. That rules out, well, all twitching, round strikes, and the like.

Jake

[Brian Hunt]

Hey Jake,

that is only for weapons that are 6 feet or longer. A four foot longsword has none of the restricition of the 90 degree rules.Ttherefore you could use all of the cuts that we normally use, but you would still be restricted on target areas, no grappling, etc. Plus a piece of rattan that is at least 1 and quarter inches in diamater really doesn't handle much like a sword. <shrug> As an SCA aquantance recently said to me, "the SCA is what it is."

Laters.

Brian Hunt
GFS.

[Jake_Norwood]

Thanks for the clarification.

"the SCA is what it is."

Yes, it is. I find that that's usually the best way to handle issues with the SCA--it's its own subculture, with traditions etc. of its own. It's not us, and we're not them, and the better both sides get it, the better.

Jake

[Jay Vail]

I tried SCA after joining ARMA thinking it would provide a venue for sparring and testing ARMA material, since I have trouble finding skilled sparring partners where I live, but gave it up as ultimately not very helpful. Their sword and board is unrealistic. Because the leg is not a target, because you are not allowed to use the shield as a weapon, because they often do not use the point, and because their “sword” does not handle like a sword, they fight within distance, mainly trading headshots. There is no zufecthen or maneuver to win the place. They just line up toe to toe like boxers and generally the first guy to throw a “shot” gets the hit. Like boxing. This is not always true, of course. I was treated to many stories about the amazing abilities of some fighters to creatively win the place, but none of the guys I played with did anything other than the same-old-same-old.

The same is largely true of their “great sword” fighting, at least with the group I played with. As someone above mentioned, the “great sword” fighters largely hold the weapon vertically and make oberhauen, although the people I played with didn’t rely on that technique exclusively. (I once started an engagement in von tag over the head and was told scornfully that this wasn't kendo and that guard was soooooo predictable; little did they know . . . )


However, that said, there is room in “great sword” combat to practice realistic technique, particularly against the greatsworders. Interestingly, ARMA training proved itself many times. Even poorly trained a swordsman as I am (especially then), I was able test real techniques and they worked very well -- the triangle step, the oberhau followed immediately by the returning unterhau, winding and binding, the thrust from ochs, and so on. The SCAers were amazed at some of this material, particularly the triangle step, but when I tried to show it to them, they brushed me off. They seemed willing to listed to outside techniques, but only from someone who has proved themselves in the SCA arena.

One problem though, is that most SCAers prefer the sword and board to the “great sword” so you end up fighting the sword/board guys more than the great sword folks. That too can be fun for a while because they are so predictable: they are taught to rush a great sworder on the theory that it’s so easy to get past the point. For most SCA trained great sworders this rush seems to work, but it never worked on me because I just used ARMA technique to neutralized the rush: stand on ochs and threaten with the point, and at the rush triangle step and deliver an oberhau. Never failed.

Got tired of SCA eventually, though. Sparing other ARMA trained people is so much more challenging, and you learn more.

So, use SCA people as moving pells if you must, but beware of the limitations imposed by their restrictive rule set and remember that you will not grow and learn much from playing with them.

[Jeffrey Hull]

I knew SCA was not for me when, long ago, when I talked to the leader of a group in a park, who bragged about how forcefully he swung his *weapon* to strike *completely through the man*.

I realised how ludicrous that be, since said *weapon* had no real mass, edge or heft to make that matter, and in any case, such kinetics would not serve to win an SCA match anyway -- considering that flailing and whipping as much as possible with anemic thwackers are what make the scoring hits in their bouts which do not even deserve to be called Klopfechten.

One need not take my word for it -- just check out *In Service to the Dream* at your local library, and one can see what I mean portrayed by one of their own documentaries.

JH

[Shane Smith]

As long as SCA enthusiasts don't call what they do historically-accurate fencing, I'm content to let them have all the fun they want without giving them a hard time for it. I truly think that these are two mutually exclusive paths and that there is little to no use of combining the two as that would lead to mediocrity within either in my opinion.

[Sean_Gallaty]

I was initially attracted to the SCA for the tertiary benefits that any martial art gives me - I am happier and healthier when I routunely exhaust myself in physical combat against a live opponent.

What drove me away was what I felt was the distortion caused by the manipulation of the abstractions. There are things which are optimal behaviour if your goal is to tap someone with a stick before they tap you that don't serve any greater martial goal.

[Corey Roberts]

When I first got interested in historical fencing I ended up working with the SCA because I couldn't find any other group where I live in Montana. I had recently discovered Mr. Clements book and after a few hours of working with them I realised how ridiculous some of their rules were. I am a complete beginner but often found myself accidently striking even their most experieced members in "off target" areas. I would often hit them in the lower legs, or on the knee, feet, and hands pretty much by accident. It just goes to show that since they never protect these areas their stances are so off that they can be struck in them by clueless people like me who havn't been trained yet to not hit them there.

[Sean_Gallaty]

Yes, they don't protect areas that are off limits, and their stances are weak. I got in trouble for checking, body contact, and tripping. =/

I got disenchanted with the "No heh you can't do that either", and too much gratuitous distortion, such as these 'fencing' style tapping hits done with an overhand bent elbow with about 5 lbs of -maximum- power. I'm not kidding.

I am not slamming sca, they are a fun bunch - it just didn't work for me. I consider the failing to be mine more than theirs. I'm just too martial and too uptight about that aspect of my life for that.

[Sean_Gallaty]

Actually I do have -one- beef, and that is that SCA is 'selectively' realistic - often serving a particular agenda. For example, they will have judges call sword-on-sword blocks (I'm using that term for a reason) that they feel would be sword breaking. I felt this discouraged single sword, and given the general lack of 'realism' it seemed like an odd inclusion.

In an environment of mostly make-believe, it seems very odd to me to specifically choose one thing to police. If one is going to be martial, I can think of 5 things far more critical than that off the top of my head, the first would be allowing fights to have grappling/dagger contact, and enforcing a minimum force and form for a counted hit!

[Ian Woolley]

yeah I love the SCa and its slective "authenticity". Poepl will get on you for not having a good persona or using modern materials but its ok to use plastic armor and stand toe to toe.
There even used to be three differnt hand to hand combat activities in the SCA, one of them slowly got killed off because they werent "period" enough for the reighing stick jocks. the funy thing is as un period as SCA light weapons was a lot of the sutff I learned there translated fairly well into german longsword. its jsut teh SCA lights fighters as a whole didnt want to dress up or respct the "AUTHORITY"
but I like the idea of using htem as living pells. I might acutally suit up again and do that.

[Pierre Planas]

Coming from the world LARP fighting, i probably have a point of view from the other end of the spectrum, since i try to apply what i learn through research in WMA to the more restricted field of LARP fighting. SCA and LARP aren't exactly the same, but from what i read from the SCA set of rules, it's similar.

From where i'm standing, since the most complex and efficient maneuvers of WMA are usually forbidden by the SCA set of rules, it's best to stick to the basics. Proper guards and footwork helps a lot, especially since your opponent will usually have a weak stances and only move backward and forward. Triangle steps (side steps? i'm not sure i'm getting the terms right), when properly timed, allows to get the angle you need to score a body hit on a shield protected opponent.

On a completely unrelated subject, i stumbled upon your gallery in Elfwood. Nice work.