WMA Schools

[Sean_Gallaty]

It'd propably help if you could narrow your question down a bit. There are still living traditions of HEMA that obviously don't need recreating

I mean to say - how big are the holes in the style(s)? What degree of completeness (and I realize that this is a somewhat nebulous question) is the style in, and are the boundaries of the style clearly established?

I'm specifically speaking in regards to the intended whole body of the art that ARMA intends to teach and study.

[Sean_Gallaty]

I think actually the argument and concern of 'salon influence' and 'sport' are central to the discussion and hence the strong reaction from ARMA members. If I understand it.

That is probably the central issue here, above all else. The single most driving motivation to go back to the source material and 'do it the hard way' rather than accept and adopt what is arguably an established and accepted system of contact sport - is the understanding that without tabula rasa there are going to be possibly fatal adulterations which will never be shaken out.

I think if I am not mistaken that the 'wheat from chaff' effort is in fact one of the primary ones with regards to rediscovering wma. There's such an immense burden of fantasy, assumption, distortion and even sport - that this in fact the majority influence rather than some dismissable minority.

[Bill Welch]

"That is probably the central issue here, above all else. The single most driving motivation to go back to the source material and 'do it the hard way' rather than accept and adopt what is arguably an established and accepted system of contact sport - is the understanding that without tabula rasa there are going to be possibly fatal adulterations which will never be shaken out."

Maybe, but for me it is in recreation that the truth lies, the sport is fine for a sport. But the ARMA way is not to recreate so it can be turn into or used as a sport, but to recreate the "context" that these systems were designed for, the pure and simple use of Ren. age weapons to be used in a fight for your life, be it on a battlefield or a dual.

Because to me a "combat sport" is still just that a "combat sport". <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> Every fechtbuch(I think) has a warning about learning from "Dance masters" or "Juggler" that uses tech. that is not direct and straight forward. And most sport relies on Points, instead of winning from what would be a "killing" stroke.

Sorry if that was a rant, it really is just my two cents worth. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Mike Cartier]

Every fechtbuch(I think) has a warning about learning from "Dance masters" or "Juggler" that uses tech. that is not direct and straight forward.

Thats true but i do not think they are referring to the sporting versions of the art I think they mean non efficient technique. In fact i think a good combat sport aspect (ie. sparring with rules) to any art makes it much more practical and less caught up in theory which can happen without some non cooperative testing of the techniques to make sure you are being efficient. There are limitations and Of course its not real killing, but even killing actions cannot be done except by practising them with less speed and power than one would in real life use. There is a built in limitation to either method IMHO. Each method having benefits to give and problems that can develop that one must be wary of.

[Bill Welch]

"Thats true but i do not think they are referring to the sporting versions of the art I think they mean non efficient technique. In fact i think a good combat sport aspect (ie. sparring with rules) to any art makes it much more practical and less caught up in theory which can happen without some non cooperative testing of the techniques to make sure you are being efficient."

Absolutly, Mike you are correct, sparring with rules is great and no way could I or would I say any less.(I love it!). I just dont think of that as a "Combat Sport", In as much as say Karate, Kendo, Boxing, or sport fencing.
Where it began as a martial sport and was sportified out of the realm of being combat. Thats more along the lines I was thinking of.

[JeanryChandler]

I don't know what this stuff about others not studying HEMA as a martial art or not doing freeplay or not seeking to hone their interpretions is, but I can assure you that with most groups it is utter rot.

In the US, AEMMA has (or had until very recently) a policy of not sparring with padded weapons. That is not 'utter rot'. Several other smaller schools have the same policy.

Jeanry

[david welch]

Bill, that is the difference between losing in sparring and saying "I lost this match", and saying "@#$%, I'm dead!".

That's knowing that if you lose it is going to hurt (even if you lose to one of "the girls"), so you are fighting for your life.

There is a big difference between having to sit one out because you lost a sparring match, and having to sit one out because you lost a sparring match.

[M Wallgren]

I agree....

And I take as much learning of getting beaten in sparring or even more than winning... Sparring is training!

Martin

[Randall Pleasant]

M Wallgren wrote:
Sparring is training

Yes indeed! <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" /> In the ARMA DFW study group we make sure that everybody clearly understands that at our regular practice sparring is always a part of training. We also tell them that whenever possible sparring should always involve three people, the two fighting and another to observe and comment on their footwork, body position, technique, etc. Although we have moments of laughter and joking we do not allow any horse play in sparring.

[Mike Chidester]

Bill, that is the difference between losing in sparring and saying "I lost this match", and saying "@#$%, I'm dead!".

That's knowing that if you lose it is going to hurt (even if you lose to one of "the girls"), so you are fighting for your life.

There is a big difference between having to sit one out because you lost a sparring match, and having to sit one out because you lost a sparring match.

Even the "padded" weapons have been known to leave bruises, welts, and (occasionally) scars. Wasters doubly so. I had to sit out half of Devin's prize playing because I busted up my hand pretty bad. Once that happens a time or two you treat sparring like real combat even if you (intellectually) know that your life isn't really in danger.

[M Wallgren]

Some of the guys in ARMA Gimo have even sported broken fingers and stuff after sparring...

Martin

[Bill Welch]

And that is exactly why ARMA is different from other RMA groups. The dedication to combat form, and not just whacking each other with padded sticks.(At least that is what I get out of it!) <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" /> Which by the way is way cool.

[Bill Welch]

"Once that happens a time or two you treat sparring like real combat even if you (intellectually) know that your life isn't really in danger."

Have you meet my brother David? <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[Joachim Nilsson]

Martin wrote:

And I take as much learning of getting beaten in sparring or even more than winning... Sparring is training!

Well Martin, perhaps you remember that Bujinkan guy I told you about? The one I trained kick-boxing with some 7 years ago. He has critisized what we do on multiple occasions (though never to my face) and thus still have a standing invitation to come train and spar with us. Thus far I haven't heard word from him. We are all 100% for intense sparring as a tool for training and putting our interpretations to the test.

Sometimes there obviously is a danger with sparring and sparring challenges though. And that being that some folks don´t make that assumption [i.e as in it being a training tool] and take a invitation to sparring as something it´s not. I think that is a sad, sad thing that hamper us in our mutual quest... It divides and lessens the spirit and kills one's interest...

[Aaron Pynenberg]

I agree with you guys 100% Sparring can be dangerous, we have also had a case of a broken finger and numerous welts and bruises.

The ones who suffer these and then quit are the ones I feel never fully understood the reason behind the drills and the solo practice. This is a killing art, plain and simple it was used to hurt, and kill and when we pracice we obviously do so with the safest possible pararmeters but let's face it these techniques are deadly serious. You can not seperate the two types of practicing the drills and the sparring support each other mutually, they exist together, not in seperate spheres.-Aaron