WMA Schools

[Chris Thompson]

>ARMA, unlike all of the other organizations that I know about, is a pure martial arts organization. Role playing, renactment, dress up, and sports competition are not goals of ARMA>

Nor are they goals of most WMA organizations. Most WMA groups I know of don't do reenactment or dress up or role playing. They do academic research, drills and free fencing with steel or wooden weapons- "pure martial arts" as you put it. They don't always agree with ARMA on the interpretation of the evidence. That doesn't make them "less martial."

-Chris Thompson

[David_Knight]

I must admit I've never seen a group of any note try to directly apply the teachings of sport or Oriental fencing to HEMA (which doesn't mean it may not happen, of course, but if it does, it's a quite new phenomenon for me).

Rabbe - Then you haven't spent much time perusing a certain international forum for sword enthusiasts, which shall of course remain nameless. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[JeanryChandler]

All this talk of broken hands and fingers leads me to suggest...

"Wear Gloves!" <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Jeanry

[david welch]

All this talk of broken hands and fingers leads me to suggest...

"Wear Gloves!"

Or my favorite...

"That's OK. If I didn't want you to hit them, I wouldn't have left them out there like that."

[JeffGentry]

Hey David

That's OK. If I didn't want you to hit them, I wouldn't have left them out there like that."

You said it Brother, I only get hurt when I screw up, so i try to avoid mistake's.

Jeff

[Joachim Nilsson]

Jeanry wrote:

All this talk of broken hands and fingers leads me to suggest...

"Wear Gloves!"

They did. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Rabbe J.O. Laine]

In the US, AEMMA has (or had until very recently) a policy of not sparring with padded weapons. That is not 'utter rot'. Several other smaller schools have the same policy.

That's true, but the fact that they don't use padded wasters doesn't mean they don't do freeplay.

Rabbe

[JeanryChandler]

That's true, but the fact that they don't use padded wasters doesn't mean they don't do freeplay.

Rabbe

You are right, they can perform free play.

What it means is they are extremely restricted in their ability to perform full-speed, full-contact sparring. In fact they cannot do it at all except in heavy armor and even then, they are still constrained in their fencing particularly in thrusts.

Practicing Blossfechten full speed in armor is somewhat silly to begin with, and the need to have all the armor for every fighter means every (full speed) sparring session is a major event.

From my own personal correspondence with some people in these groups, and from reading their websites, I believe this leads them to spar (full speed) considerably less often. And from watching some of their sparring videos, it seems to me that their fighting ability has suffered as a result.

Just my own personal opinion of course. I am a big believer in the value of sparring.

Jeanry

[JeanryChandler]

Sometimes there obviously is a danger with sparring and sparring challenges though. And that being that some folks don´t make that assumption [i.e as in it being a training tool] and take a invitation to sparring as something it´s not. I think that is a sad, sad thing that hamper us in our mutual quest... It divides and lessens the spirit and kills one's interest...

I have been in a few situations like this with local EMA fighters, and I know what you mean about things getting out of hand, but I actually feel within certain limits, a certain amount of very competetive vibe can actually be beneficial. I had a couple of very intense, very serious sparring bouts with EMA guys which I think really focused my skills and challenged me, and the intensity of the experience brought out my WMA training to a whole different level, which actually felt a lot more real. I think it's good to experience this once in a while as long as it doesn't get out of hand.

From a position of intense rivalry I found we often came to a point of mutual respect as a result.

Jeanry

[Randall Pleasant]

Q: what distinguishes ARMA from AEMMA and SAS and other schools?

The single primary feature of ARMA that distinguishes it from all other organizations is the ARMA Method of Study. All of the other answers given are in some way or another a product of the ARMA method. <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[Matthew_Anderson]

I agree Jeanry, I think it's important to practice with a variety of training weapons. Nothing behaves exactly like a sword except a sword, so it's important to work with accurate replicas. However, the padded weapons are a really practical way to do full speed, full contact sparring without undue risk of serious injury. If you never go at it this way, it's like training to be a sprinter by practicing walking.

[Sean_Gallaty]

I have to say with all earnestness that the best test of my martial arts has always been to fight against an opponent who did things I could not anticipate or was not familiar with.

I think I would seek to find opponents who studied other sword styles both eastern and western and spar against them, if we could find a neutral ground to do so.

I'm also dubious about padded weapons, unless there is some very strict refereeing and discipline. Boffers and padded weapons to me are a huge area of possible salon alteration and deevolution into compromise for sport.

And Re: breaking fingers and toes - man, as a regular martial artist I can assure you that this isn't anything special. The body toughens up pretty fast, but even with a non-'extreme' style that encourages contact sparring you WILL someday crack ribs, get knocked silly, break toes (I cracked 2 toes on a bag! =/ ), and hyperextend and fracture fingers.

Everyone who gets into ANY martial art needs to understand that ahead of time. Yes, it's going to hurt. Yes, it has to hurt. No, pain doesn't rule you.

in the unfortunate event that any of us ever gets into a real fight, the ugly truth is that the other guy is probably going to hurt you. Every fight I've been in, the other guy managed to hurt me. Did that stop me? Nope. It didn't even slow me down. Tolerance to pain is one of the other things you'll learn studying martial arts, and along with it a freedom from fear.

[Jay Vail]

In the ARMA DFW study group we make sure that everybody clearly understands that at our regular practice sparring is always a part of training. We also tell them that whenever possible sparring should always involve three people, the two fighting and another to observe and comment on their footwork, body position, technique, etc. Although we have moments of laughter and joking we do not allow any horse play in sparring.

Boy, I like this approach. I'm moving to Dallas. You got room in your garage for my bed?

[JeanryChandler]

I'm also dubious about padded weapons, unless there is some very strict refereeing and discipline. Boffers and padded weapons to me are a huge area of possible salon alteration and deevolution into compromise for sport.

As mentioned before, padded weapons are used for full speed, while wooden wasters and steel blunts are also used for slower speed free play, and sharps for test cutting.

And with due respect, frankly, you dont have any experience with the type of padded weapons we actually use now. They are a far cry from 'boffers'. In terms of weight, balance, and shape they are as accurate as most wooden wasters, and unlike 'boffers', they do not flex in an unrealistic manner. They are just safe enough to use full speed (with helmets and padded gloves) without being likely to cause serious injury, but are not toys.

Jeanry

[Rabbe J.O. Laine]

You are right, they can perform free play.

What it means is they are extremely restricted in their ability to perform full-speed, full-contact sparring. In fact they cannot do it at all except in heavy armor and even then, they are still constrained in their fencing particularly in thrusts.

No - assuming they're willing to invest the extra cash in decent protective equipment, fencing can be done quite safely with steel blunts - at least with certain systems. Admittedly, German longsword, for example, might present problems with its emphasis on strong single-time counterattacks, but Silver and Bolognese sidesword, for example, can be done quite safely in relatively light equipment, assuming both fencers possess a little thing called control... <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

If twenty pounds of of protective equipment considerably affect one's fencing, a trip to the gym might be in order.

Practicing Blossfechten full speed in armor is somewhat silly to begin with, and the need to have all the armor for every fighter means every (full speed) sparring session is a major event.

Yep, but twenty pounds isn't exactly full armour...

From my own personal correspondence with some people in these groups, and from reading their websites, I believe this leads them to spar (full speed) considerably less often. And from watching some of their sparring videos, it seems to me that their fighting ability has suffered as a result.

I'm not sure which groups you mean, but I've seen plenty of videos of people fencing perfectly well with steel - and of some extremely poor fencing with padded weapons.

Best wishes
Rabbe