Speed and Force

[TimSheetz]

Hi all...

I was going to post this at the end of the WMA Schools thread but John receommended that I start a new topic....

The question of going full speed vs full force came up and Ray Brunk had a couple of points that I tend to agree with - that is, you cannot swing full speed and be safe since you are using full speed....

John disagreed saying that we use full speed sparring safely with blunts frequently.

Question for you all: What do you think?

I respond below.....

Hi John,

I can agree with you... but you and I know that your full speed, and your FULL SPEED are two different things. We can spar with blunts and be safe, but when we start pushing the envelope on real fighting speeds and efforts, I think we need to acknowledge that there is a difference...

So we can say "full speed" but then I have to ask, what is "full". If I swing as fast as I can, I cannot be confident that I can stop it. I think I have pretty good control. If I swing a sword in a very quick manner to replicate the trajectory and path of a swing that is in earnest, then I can be controlled. But is it "full speed". If you think, "yes", then Ray and I need to add "All out speed" or some such to the category.

In the past I had major arguements with folks somewhere else about this topic and I have come to this conclusion: making a distinction between these two types of efforts I describe above will help guys like me and Ray from getting high blood pressure.

Peace,

Tim Sheetz

[GeoffGagner]

I agree that there is a difference in full speed and "FULL SPEED" (aka "as fast and as strong/hard as you can"). Just as there is a difference in training to defend yourself and actually fighting to defend yourself, let alone fighting for survival. Those of us who have seen J.C. do anything at full speed can honestly tell John that he is very kind to not train with/teach us at his "full speed". For me it was hard enough to keep up just watching him. I'm sure as usual this is all just a semantics issue.

Also if anyone(I believe this is on topic still), John especially could lend some advice on teaching and or determining control in newbies I would appreciate it. I trust myself to defend myself while opposing them... but just when should I unleash the dogs on each other <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" /> ? Personally I don't like doing first aid anymore(call me lazy).

I suppose/propose that distance is more important than going full speed at first, or "all out" full speed. I believe that for beginners a good goal for speed and intent is: that the strike be within range, on target, and fast enough to preform whatever defense we are currently working on while maintaining enough control to stop before cracking a skull. I also am a strong believer in calibrating so both students know what they are dealing with.

I remember needing to start slow, like with most of our early stuff like the 8 cut drill, and eventually worked up to going at it full speed. Thoughts anyone? I have a fresh study group on my hands and any help will be appreciated. Of course they are aware that we are a martial arts group and as such we are bound to get bumps, bruises, racked fingers, banged knuckles, etc... <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Mike Cartier]

I agree with Tim and Ray on this, i think we can go quite fast in sparring with wood or steel but it will never be the full speed that we use with paddeds.

I would say that there is full speed and all out full speed.
i think by its nature we cannot go all out and still control the hit of the weapon.

[Matthew_Anderson]

I can only speak from my own experience. I think John has a point in that we can do free play with wasters or blunts in a very aggressive, spirited way and strike in such a way that the trajectory and velocity is realistic enough to make the training meanigful without undue risk of injury. But is it "full speed and power"? Probably not. I have to restrain myself a little in the techniques that I will attempt, targets I will strike at, and of course, the level of force on impact. The padded weapons allow the freedom to really go full out without worrying about injuries. That's why the muliti-weapon approach is so important. We should definately do free play and perform full speed drills with blunts and wasters because no matter how well made they are, a padded weapon will never perform like a real sword. Use the padded weapons when you want to be sure you're not holding back in terms of speed or targeting.

[David Craig]

I agree also. In my view, the necessity to exercise greater control with wood or steel creates a different fighting situation than one where you can attack freely without seriously worrying about injuring your partner.

For those with the greatest degree of skill, the difference between exercising enough control and fighting all-out may not be significant. But in my opinion, for the vast majority of us, there is a huge difference between fighting with steel/wood and fighting with a padded weapon.

With steel or wood, my primary concern is to avoid injuring my opponent. With a padded weapon, my main focus is hitting him.

David

[leam hall]

No matter how skilled your are you cannot control the other person. It is *very* easy for them to do the unexpected and move in closer. If they do you may not have time to stop the momentum of the blade.

[Jako Valis]

Hi All!

Let's not make this one another padded against wood against steel -discussion, since controlling the weapon _works_ about the same way with each type of object, even if one chooses to excercice it differently.

Regarding "all out"-speed, I agree, there is full speed and there is even faster. While I may get the point moving faster in terms of velocity, the losses in form and posture make the actions slower in terms of actually hitting my opponent. But as I'll explain below, we must remember that the speed doesn't come only from quick hands, and neither does control.

Speed and nimbleness in fighting comes from the ability to go from action to action smoothly, and from the ability to feel and react without hindrance. It does not come from trying to achieve maximum velocity during a cut.

I watched the videos posted from an ARMA get-together in one of the earlier posts, and there were a few occasions where the attacker finished his cuts hitting the ground. That really slows the recovery time, and is usually a result of "all-out"-speed. In other words, trying to go too quickly.

One other thing is, that speed and power is not the same thing. Swords are designed to cut, and cleave through their target. They're not ment to give surface impacts. They are not sticks, as we all know. To be able to properly cut through, one must remain in good posture, and be able to support the edge with his/her bodyweight while remaining in a mobile position, in case need be to quickly change direction etc. Usually, regardless of how fast they are, everybody is able to cut "too fast", which results in the loss of these things.

Also, hands are faster than feet. Let us assume, for the sake of this example, that you are cutting from your right shoulder with a step of the right foot. There is nothing wrong in landing the cut before the foot lands, which is possible because the hand (and blade, of course) moves faster than the foot. But, if you do so, you loose distance. On the other hand, if you step first and then cut, you'll get steel run through your face (because of moving in false time). Therefore, to cut with your maximum range, you must be able to time your cut and the step to be near simultaneous, which requires you to "slow" your hands in the cut. This is 100% real-fighting-technique, and used all the time. And it's not the all-out speed (of your hands). And this speed is completely controllable as Mr. Clements also mentioned.

And Leam, that's where the stopping the cut-reflex becomes handy, if your partner does something unexpected, you should be able to really stop the action there, instead of taking it through with control.

I hope we can discuss this constructively.

With respect,
Jako

[Mike Cartier]

to me fighting with a sword is as much about counter cutting as it is cutting. Most counter cuts are done on a persons mistakes, if you are not swinging like you would in a real situation your strikes will not have the same result when you miss thereby creating a false timing.

We almost never hit the ground in our group and there is no such thing as too much speed or power with a padded. Often this power is what exposes a weak guard by smashing through. I have learned much in my hanging point guard from having big people hit me hard.

I agree that we should do alot of control work with wood and steel but i don't think we can fight the same way.

[Jako Valis]

Mike,

If you're talking about countercutting to hands, yes, you normally do this during your opponent's attack. but what gives you time for it? Not that you would be faster, but the fact that your opponet is trying to reach your head, and to reach his hands you don't need to take such a big action. Your action is smaller than your opponents. It's not about speed, it's about executing a shorter tempo. (Of course, being quick does make things easier. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

If you're talking about, for example, countercutting to head, you place yourself in a position where you can hit him and he can't hit you, and here you have slightly more time, because you can still hit his head, even if his hands have finished the cut (that missed because of your avoidance). Here, you'd have to hit him before he steps away from your cut, or parries, which would be another tempo.

there is no such thing as too much speed or power with a padded

What do you mean there is no such thing? Did you read my explanation above? It applies whether your fighting with an umbrella, with a crowbar, a sword or a padded sword.

And again. Speed and power are different things. You can cut slow, but with power, and you can cut fast, with no power at all. Please treat these things separately. Posture gives you power, speed gives you impact.

Often this power is what exposes a weak guard by smashing through.

Exactly. But a poor cut with lots of velocity will bounce off even from a crappy hanging guard. A slow cut (in drill, where you can't move faster yourself to alter your position), with proper posture, will smash through a crappy hanging guard easily. Speed and power are not the same thing. And when fencing, you can go "full-speed" and still choose how much of this pressure you want to give. You can intentionally bounce off from a parry, or if you feel it's s**t you can just power through. Regardless of speed.

Now with all this talk of the importance of "fuhlen" or "sentimento di ferro" or feeling at the blade, how do you expect to be sensitive in the crossing if you can't be sensitive when you hit your opponent's head. You need control in a real fight, all the time. Every action should be controlled, either it's made by a "buffalo". That's why it's easy to exploit a "buffalo", because he has no control - he has no sensitivity.

Yours,
Jako

[TimSheetz]

Hi Jako,

Like I said before, I think that sparring with blunts and wasters can be done at speed... but in all honesty, the work with those tools is for the development of technique and to work out the way the tools interact with each other - differently than with padded weapons.

I look at sparring with blunts and wasters as I do with Padded weapons - BUT with a "safety inhibitor" mentality. My actions are more inhibited with a focus on technique and not damaging my training partner. With Padded, the mental "safety inhibitor" is not activiated - or turned waaay down . This allows for more freedom in the way we strike with intent.

So, full speed (inhibited) with blunts and wasters and full speed (uninhibited) with padded sparring weapons... how does that sound?

Peace,

Tim Sheetz

[Gene Tausk]

Hi Tim:

I agree with what you are saying. For me, however, the biggest difference between sparring with contact weapons and sparring with wasters/blunts is really more of a mindset than anything else.

When sparring with contact weapons, I don't really concern myself with the mindset of controlling speed and impact. The contact weapons, when used at full speed and power, will of course sting, leave a bruise and/or a "reminder" that one has been hit. <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />

However, if the person is wearing head protection, safety gloves and groin protection (which, IMHO, is the bare minimum when sparring), then the likelihood of injury is drastically reduced. Getting bruises is simply a part of any serious martial arts training and I believe any serious student will understand and accept this.

With wasters and blunts, however, I do have a mindset of controlling speed and impact because, if these tools are used at full speed and power and without control, it is obvious that injury could result. However, this also brings into play, at least for me, a renewed appreciation of the techniques because I tend to be more "technical" when sparring with these tools.

This is why it is so important, once again IMHO, to use all three when sparring because of the different mindsets that develop when using all three. Limiting oneself to one type of sparring tool really does a great disservice to both the person sparring and his/her partner.

Make sense?


----------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene
SFS
Director - Houston ARMA Southside Study Group

P.S. - from the posting on the unarmed forum. So - you're dad used to pin you down and hit you on the head when wrestling? That explains a lot about you. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Jako Valis]

Gene,

With wasters and blunts, however, I do have a mindset of controlling speed and impact because, if these tools are used at full speed and power and without control, it is obvious that injury could result.

Are you telling me you free-fence with padded swords "without control" then? If you're in a real sword fight and don't stay in control of your weapon, yes, injuries will happen, most likely to you. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

I can admit that I haven't tried an ARMA padded sword, but if it is anything like a real sword, and you do a timed counterthrust against someone attacking you with a "full on all out" cut while rushing in, necks are in danger.

A good swordsman is always in control of his/her weapon, whether it is waiting in the scabbard, whether in hand or during a cut or opening a beer bottle or whatever. If you are able to react when your cut "fails" because of being parried, at that very exact moment when there is blade contact, if you can go from hard to soft, then you can do this also when making contact with your opponents head. With steel, with wood and with foam and with the combination of all three.

In my opinion it's a disrespect to swords in general if you can hit your opponent as hard as it would take to kill him with a real sword, and only cause a minor bruise. Swords are designed to kill. I'll rather free-fence with the killing potential there, altough keeping it well secured, saving it for the theoretical "real thing". This, of course, is only my own opinion. The real issue is of controlling the weapon regardless of the material it's made of.

Yours,
Jako

[Mike Cartier]

It is control that I am talking about Jako, if you don't strike hard and fast you are never doing it at full speed as you would actually do it and attempting to control your sword in the act of actual cutting. Controlling your sword when there is not intention or no speed behind it is easy , controlling your sword when you are striking just as you would in a fight is precisly the point of using paddeds and sparring.

The same thing applies to punching, speed + strength = power. We can box with realistic speed but little strength and it will be a nice sparring match, howerver it is not like fighting it is just tapping, in a fight you strike hard and fast, as hard and fast as you can. And don't say that that means you have no control, because the the entire purpose of martial arts is to learn to strike with full speed and power and still keep form and control. If i never really swing at you liker i would in a fight i am not training for fighting but training only for the sparring match.

And just like in boxing and kickboxing, various degrees of intent and speed/strength are used for various sparring methods to work at the different attributes trained in each method. Steel and wood teach one thing but lack another, paddeds teach one thing but lack another. So method alone is sufficient.

[TimSheetz]

Hi Gene,

I am in full agreement. The reason I said: "I think that sparring with blunts and wasters can be done at speed... but in all honesty, the work with those tools is for the development of technique and to work out the way the tools interact with each other "

It is the appreciation of the technique that makes it very important. But I am also glad that you said mind set, I forgot to. Facing off vs a blunt or a waster increases the stress of the training and helps our mindset. The perceived (and actual) danger is an important element in training.

I want to also say ,,just cause I think it is important, that in no way my discussing terms on full speed with blunts or padded is a knock on the importance of training with blunts. It is part of an overall system and each piece is a part of "the elephant"...

If three blind men were asked what an elephant was like and each went to feel it... if one felt the trunk, he'd say it was liek a snake... if one felt a leg, he'd say it was like a tree... if one felt its side, he'd say it was like a wall... they are all correct but only partly... so by studying with these training tools helps us see part of the ELEPHANT that is combat.

Peace,

Tim

[JeffGentry]

Hey guy's

IMHO this being a "Martial art" our objective is to use these technique's to kill and maime.

I would be very leary of using even a blunt at full speed as someone stated earlier "we can't control our opponent" so if when i see an opening in his defense, and attack it at full speed so he lose's the ability to stop my strike full force because my objective is to kill or maime him, well i am pretty sure that if i do not pull(i.e. slow down) my strike then i am more than likely going to seriously hurt my opponent that is what these technique's are designed to do.

It is pretty cut and dry to me that we can only go full force and speed with padded weapon's.

As with most thing's there are exception's to the rule, the exception to this in displacing full force and speed to the weapon not the opponent, or void full speed, stiffling full force full speed i do not feel we can safely go full speed when swinging with a waster, or blunt, at our training partner directly.

We will alway's have to slow a strike to our partner down to keep from hitting him with the full force, speed, so is it still a full speed, full force strike?

Or would that be considered contolled?


Jeff