Meyer Fectbuch

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Jay Vail
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Meyer Fectbuch

Postby Jay Vail » Sat May 28, 2005 5:55 pm

Does anybody know who owns the rights to the Joachim Meyer fechtbuck?

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JeanryChandler
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Re: Meyer Fectbuch

Postby JeanryChandler » Sat May 28, 2005 6:12 pm

It should be public domain based on the age of the document shouldn't it?

Jr
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David_Knight
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Re: Meyer Fectbuch

Postby David_Knight » Sat May 28, 2005 7:01 pm

Not exactly. The words themselves are naturally public domain because of their age (under both US and EU Copyright Law), so you could publish a transcription and/or translation of the text without paying for permissions.

But any images of the fechtbuch are the property of the library or museum that owns the MS and took the pictures, so to commercially reproduce any illustrations from the manual, you would have to pay for permissions. And because you are a rich American, do not be surprised if you are asked to pay in the € 60 range per image!

Those ownership rights are protected by international treaties, too, so there is no way to circumvent the Europeans' monopoly on fechtbucher aside from making your own drawings or pictures. It's very frustrating. Good luck!

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JeanryChandler
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Re: Meyer Fectbuch

Postby JeanryChandler » Sun May 29, 2005 12:10 am

Yeah, we did something like this for an RPG game project I worked on. We did an historical weapons catalogue which we wanted to base on real antique weapons. My attorney advised me that while the 'appearance' of the weapons was public domain, the specific photos taken by various museums or auction houses were privately owned.

It would have been impossible to negotiate agreements with all the people who took photos of each and every weapon, even though many probably would not have minded, there were hundreds of weapons. So with a lot of extra effort all around, we had an artist draft extremely painstaking likenesses of each weapon, drawn to scale based on the actual dimensions of the weapons themselves, as verified from a variety of sources (and some of that information can be hard to find out!). This made the project much more labor intensive but i think it really paid off in terms of quality in the long run.

Jeanry
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David_Knight
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Re: Meyer Fectbuch

Postby David_Knight » Tue Jun 07, 2005 4:54 pm

Very good news!!!

I've been doing further research on this topic, and apparently there is something of a loophole when you are reproducing images of artwork that is clearly in the public domain (esp. if it is considered PD in the host countries, which is the case here; I have verified the PD status of the fechtbucher with both German and Austrian copyright lawyers).

US courts have basically ruled that unless the digital image of a particular PD artwork is significantly different from the original, it does not fall under copyright protection. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

In other words, reproducing Meyer's artwork is legal, even if you are deriving it from digital images. But reproducing the entire digital image (which shows the edges of the page, the book binding, blank space around the fechtbuch, paperweights that the photographer used to hold the book open, etc.) would be illegal.

So as long as you crop out anything that Meyer didn't draw, you should be fine. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

This article does a good job of explaining everything: http://www.nolo.com/article.cfm/objectID/9A0CBFD6-729C-4691-A08AD659330277D8/310/276/136/QNA/

And this is the case that supports it (Bridgeman v. Corel): http://www.law.cornell.edu/copyright/cases/36_FSupp2d_191.htm

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Mike Cartier
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Re: Meyer Fectbuch

Postby Mike Cartier » Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:18 pm

bravo David!!
Mike Cartier
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david welch
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Re: Meyer Fectbuch

Postby david welch » Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:58 pm

Outstanding work, David!

I have been wanting to make some T-shirts with that artwork for a while but was afraid of the copyright stuff. <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />
"A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand." Lucius Annaeus Seneca 4BC-65AD.

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Jake_Norwood
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Re: Meyer Fectbuch

Postby Jake_Norwood » Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:16 pm

Good job! Fantastic news. Thanks for clearing that up.

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David_Knight
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Re: Meyer Fectbuch

Postby David_Knight » Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:16 pm

I should point out at this juncture that I am not a lawyer (yet), so you might want to double-check everything with someone who has finished law school (and passed the bar, just to be safe <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />), but I am fairly confident that the precedent has been set in our favor.

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David_Knight
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Re: Meyer Fectbuch

Postby David_Knight » Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:20 pm

An even better article on the Bridgeman vs. Corel ruling: http://englishhistory.net/tudor/art.html

Jay Vail
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Re: Meyer Fectbuch

Postby Jay Vail » Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:51 am

With all due respect, a single opinion from a single district court does not establish the law in any jurisdiction in the U.S. It may be influential, but it is not controlling on any judge anywhere in the country. And its influence only depends on how well reasoned and well supported it is.

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John_Clements
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Re: Meyer Fectbuch

Postby John_Clements » Fri Jun 10, 2005 6:28 pm

Quick aside here, from what I understand there is also a loophole in that if you happen to own an original edition of some published reprint of a historical work it is also considered PD so long as the reprint is itself in excess of 76 years old. Thus, if you have an original 19th century book that reproduced some Fechtbuch you can then freely reproduce that material from your own collection regardless of who now owns the actual original historical document or artwork. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

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David_Knight
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Re: Meyer Fectbuch

Postby David_Knight » Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:50 pm

Jay,

Although this was not a Supreme Court decision, it is not an insignificant case; rather, it seems to have made a tremendous impact on the art/museum law world, as it would form a very powerful argument for the defense in any subsequent cases. The Bridgeman vs. Corel ruling was reconsidered at the plaintiff's request, and if you read the case notes, you'll see that the judge was *extremely* thorough in her reasoning.

The Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that "writings" (stories, poems, drawings, etc.) must show "originality" to be protected, most notably in Feist Publications, Inc. v. Rural Telephone Service Co., Inc. This is also a statuatory requirement per 17 U.S.C. Sec. 102(a).

From the US Copyright Office:

"In a series of decisions from 1879 to 1903, the Supreme Court held that the “writings” that could be protected under the Copyright Clause of the Constitution included “only such as are original,” and indicated that creativity is a component of originality."

Bridgeman v. Corel simply established that the act of transferring a public domain work from one medium to another, i.e. making a facsimile, does not constitute "originality" because there is no creative input, and that any "sweat of the brow" put forth by the photographer does not supercede the originality requirement:

"Here, as the Court noted in its earlier opinion, 'it is uncontested that Bridgeman's images are substantially
exact reproductions of public domain works, albeit in a different medium.'... There has been no suggestion
that they vary significantly from the underlying works. In consequence, the change of medium is immaterial."

I do not see how this ruling could be overturned, esp. in the case of the fechtbucher, which are all facsimiles of centuries-old "writings". Bridgeman's lawyers seem to have reached the same conclusion, as they dropped the appeal.

Jay Vail
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Re: Meyer Fectbuch

Postby Jay Vail » Sat Jun 11, 2005 6:19 am

David,

I must reiterate, a single district court opinion does not “establish” the law on any subject. A district court fashions a legal rule, when none perhaps existed to address a novel legal situation, and applies the rule to reach a result that affects the parties.

That legal rule is the law for the parties but not necessarily for anyone else. This is because the holdings of a federal district court are binding on no one but the parties. Other judges are free to adopt or reject the holdings of other district court judges, and they often do, even when they are judges sitting on the same court. I have had that happen to me more than once.

The law for a particular jurisdiction is only established when the circuit court of appeals (when you’re in the federal system) or an intermediate state appellate court announces and applies a legal proposition as part of its holding. If you want to see how that works involving use of a federal district court opinion, read Horne v. School Board of Miami-Dade County, 30 Fla. L. Weekly D 1002 (Fla. 1st DCA April 18, 2005), a case I recently handled. In Horne, the 1st DCA relied in part on a federal district court opinion to adopt the rule that a former agency head was not subject to deposition absent the demonstration of extraordinary circumstances. However, you will note that the court did not rely solely on that opinion but also on the opinion of another state supreme court. The law, of course, is also established when the Supreme Court does the same thing. You must be careful to distinguish legal propositions that form part of the holding from those which are dicta, portions of an opinion that do not contribute to the reasoning leading to the holding. Many lawyers make the mistake of citing a case for dictum rather than the holding.

On another point, Bridgeman will not be “overturned” because it is no longer appealable, since the case was decided some years ago. What you apparently mean is that other courts are unlikely to reach a different result or to apply a different rule than that followed in Bridgemn. Whether they are or not is not a matter that can be so easily predicted. You will be surprised what judges will do. They often disagree on what seem like simple, open and shut propositions, which is why we have appellate courts.

Thus, you are taking a chance when you rely on just the opinion of a district court. Sometimes you have to do that, when that’s all the authority you can find. But it is a slender reed on which to rest a legal position when losing may entail a considerable loss of money.

Finally, you cannot draw any conclusions from the fact that the loser did not appeal. Litigants decide not to appeal for many reasons other than a judgment about the likelihood of success. A judgment about the chance of reversal is certainly one of them, and I have turned down cases that I thought were dogs. But litigants also do not pursue appeals because they haven’t got enough money (civil appeals can cost between $50,000-$100,000 today), because they settle or simply because they’re tired of fighting.

Warm regards,

J

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David_Knight
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Re: Meyer Fectbuch

Postby David_Knight » Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:54 am

Jay,

Your legal jargon is formidable, indeed. Point taken. And by "overturned", yes, I meant "subverted by another judge".

Do you personally agree with the Bridgeman v. Corel decision, and do you think that the judge's reasoning was solid?

The general consensus is that since this case basically just built upon the U.S.C. statutes and that Supreme Court ruling about "sweat of the brow" not being a "creative spark", any similar lawsuits would fail, which would be even more damaging to the museums. Thoughts?


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