Kingdom of Heaven

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jake

For some odd reason i am thinking that i read somewhere that they used some sort of system of signal flag's, to tell everyone what was happening.

I do know that in the modern military alot of it is pre planning and SOP when thing's happen, at least in my unit it was, We had certain code word's such as panther r/l we all knew exactly what to do, i can't imagine they didn't have similar thing's.

Jeff

[david welch]

there has to have been a good method for communication and movement...at least better than "hey, look Guy's men are going that way! Maybe we should keep on fighting here so that they can flank." I'm sure that pre-battle plans had a lot to do with it (as they still do now), but there also must have been some kind of signalling system.

Niccolo Machiavelli, The Art of War (1520):

"FABRIZIO: Your first question is very important, for often the commands of the Captain are not very well understood or poorly interpreted, have disorganized their Army; hence the voices with which they command in (times of) danger, ought to be loud and clear. And if you command with sounds (bugle calls), it ought to be done so that they are so different from each other that one cannot be mistaken for another; and if you command by voice, you ought to be alert to avoid general words, and use particular ones, and of the particular ones avoid those which might be able to be interpreted in an incorrect manner. Many times saying "go back, go back", has caused an Army to be ruined: therefore this expression ought to be avoided, and in its place use "Retreat". If you want them to turn so as to change the front, either from the rear or from the flank, never use "Turn around", but say, "To the left", "To the right", "To the rear", "To the front". So too, all the other words have to be simple and clear, as "Hurry", "Hold still", "Forward", "Return". And all those things which can be done by words are done, the others are done by sounds (calls). As to the (road) clearers, which is your second question, I would have this job done by my own soldiers, as much because the ancient military did so, as also because there would be fewer unarmed men and less impediments in the army: and I would draw the number needed from every company, and I would have them take up the tools suitable for clearing, and leave their arms in those ranks that are closest to them, which would carry them so that if the enemy should come, they would have nothing to do but take them up again and return to their ranks."

[david welch]

Also, to show they thought about this stuff from the beginning...

The Military Affairs of Ancient Rome &
Roman Art of War in Caesar's Time
By Lt. Col. S.G. Brady
©1947 The Military Service Publishing Company. Copyright Expired

Appendices for the Military Service Publishing Company's 1947 print of "Caesar's Gallic Campaigns" (page 182-230).

"SIGNAL INSTRUMENTS AND MUSICIANS

FIELD MUSIC

Instruments were the bugle (bucina), trumpet (tuba), horn (cornu), and the clarion (lituus), all of brass or oxhorn fitted with metal mouthpieces. They were used exclusively for signals and not as a band. "

[JeanryChandler]

Jake,

The Mongols had this special communications corps comprised of "arrow riders" who would ride to specific spots on the battlefield and return to report to the commanders and deliver messages to and from subordinates. This was a big reason for their success in battle. Rand corporation did a real interesting analysis of this in the late 90's, they had an essay called "netwar" which discussed the principles behind it.

I understand that the Military Orders, (Templars, Hospitalers, Teutonic Knights, and the various others who eventually followed) also had systems for battlefield communications, and various preset maneuvers which could be called by flags or trumpet signals.

I'm not so sure though about a lot of the earlier medieval knights generally speaking though, they seemed to make a lot of incredible blunders. It seems very likely that some of the more successful European military leaders like Richard Lionheart did also have effective battlefield intelligence of some sort, as they were able to react to ambushes etc.

Hans Delbruk mentions this in his excellent though slightly dated "Medieval Warfare".

Jeanry

[david welch]

Jeanry,

THE military manual of the middle ages was Vegetius' DE RE MILITARI.

From the introduction of the 1940 british reprint:

The most influential military treatise in the western world from Roman times to the 19th Century was Vegetius' DE RE MILITARI. Its impressions on our own traditions of discipline and organization are everywhere evident.

The Austrian Field Marshal, Prince de Ligne, as late as 1770, called it a golden book and wrote: "A God, said Vegetius, inspired the legion, but for myself, I find that a God inspired Vegetius." Richard Coeur de Lion carried DE RE MILITARI everywhere with him in his campaigns, as did his father, Henry II of England. Around 1000 A. D. Vegetius was the favorite author of Foulques the Black, the able and ferocious Count of Anjou. Numerous manuscript copies of Vegetius circulated in the time of Charlemagne and one of them was considered a necessity of life by his commanders. A manuscript Vegetius was listed in the will of Count Everard de Frejus, about 837 A. D., in the time of Ludwig the Just.

In his Memoirs, Montecuculli, the conqueror of the Turks at St. Gotthard, wrote: "However, there are spirits bold enough to believe themselves great captains as soon as they know how to handle a horse, carry a lance at charge in a tournament, or as soon as they have read the precepts of Vegetius." Such was the reputation of Vegetius for a thousand years.

This manual was so popular, that as soon as we invented movable type printing, we printed the Bible and DE RE MILITARI!

http://www.ku.edu/kansas/medieval/108/lectures/carolingian_empire.html

Charlemagne ordered the copying of many old manuscripts dating from the late empire. Not all of these were literary; many were official documents and treatises such as the Notitia dignitatum, a list of the officials of the late empire and their location, the Laterculus, a survey, and the work of Vegetius on military organization, training, and tactics.

Do a search on Vegetius and military tactics of the middle ages, and you will be amazed at what you find.

The manual itself is a fairly short treatis on military tactics of ancient Rome, and assuming the people that paid to have a private manuscript made actually read it, they would have had no choice but to be familiar with what we would consider to be "modern military tactics".

There is an online copy you can check out at:
http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~madsb/home/war/vegetius/

[David Craig]

THE military manual of the middle ages was Vegetius' DE RE MILITARI.

It was certainly the most popular military text, but calling it a manual in any modern sense is probably going too far, given the almost complete lack of medieval standing armies, regular organization, and what we would consider military professionalism. Quoting from Phillippe Contamine's, War in the Middle Ages regarding Vegetius :

The real solid influence of this authority is difficult to determine; on the one hand because the army to which Vegetius referred was so profoundly different in its composition, recruitment, organization and spirit from medieval armies and, on the other, because in the majority of cases one can only guess at the theoretical understanding of the commanders and leaders.

As for methods of tactical control on the battlefield, there have been a number of studies specifically examining how that changed through the ages. Examples include John Keegan's, The Mask of Command and Martin van Creveld's, Command in War. According to van Creveld and his sources, bugles, signal flags, and runners/messengers were frequently used on medieval battlefields to transmit orders and make tactical changes. But the extent of such use and the commander's effective tactical control once an engagement was joined varied wildly, depending on the particular forces involved.

David

[Shane Smith]

I thought it odd that the longbows were reserved until the Arabs had closed to within 150 yards of the walls. I think a death-tipped hail of white-fletched arrows from 300 yards may have thinned(or at least dissuaded) the offenders a bit. Also, when the battle got close, the wide angle shot shows archers milling about on the wall doing nothing(maybe they were out of shafts? <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" /> ) . I still liked the movie though.

[JeffGentry]

Hello all

As far as movie's go i thought it was a good one, Even though they got the name wrong it was nice to see them at least try to put an actual stance in, and they said that he had to watch the gaurd it was a weapon too.

It may be slow hopefuly it is an indication we are making progress.

Jeff

[Jonathan Harton]

I've seen the film 3 times now and obviously love it. Overall, I think it is the most accurate attempt to recreate medieval combat in a film to this point, even if that is not saying very much.

Regaring the issue of Balian becomming a skilled warrior so "quickly," one must take into account that it was and is a long way from France to the Holy Land. The journey would have taken a period of months and there is a three year time frame that the film covers from the time Balian jointil the siege of Jerusalem. You don't get much of a sense of the time elapse because of time condesation, but it's there.

Plus, Scott was forced to edit out 80 MINS! of film from his chosen work to meet running time demands the film industry forced on him. He was and is reportedly very unhappy with this because it resulted in the choppy storyline we see in the film. Scott has claimed that a director's cut DVD will be released with the lost hour and some of film readded. I believe the battle of Hattin will be in this version as well because a segment of battle sequence is siad to have been filmed.

[Jonathan Harton]

Clearification here, my computer is screwing up, the time frame is from the time Balian joins his father until the siege of Jerusalem.

God forsaken pop ups. The creators and advocates of this media, hell spanwed creation that is the pop up should be beaten, drawn and quatterd, beheaded, and put on post mortem display to serve warning. IT IS GOD"S WILL!!!!!

[Brian Hunt]

Hey Jonathon,

I feel your pain. Download yourself a copy of spyware doctor(the free version) or spybot from www.download.com. This may help you greatly.

Brian Hunt
GFS.

[Sean_Gallaty]

I'm using the microsoft antispyware beta, and it's working out very well for me.

http://www.microsoft.com/athome/security/spyware/software/default.mspx