Modern Fechtmeister

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Jeffrey Hull
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Modern Fechtmeister

Postby Jeffrey Hull » Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:23 pm

Hello!

I have recently found a few different modern individuals on the Web who sport the historical title *Fechtmeister*.

I would like to point out how wrong it is to designate oneself as such, for these reasons:

1) Nowadays there is no living school, noble or army which has the right to assign said title by virtue of unbroken tradition and/or current demonstration of martial validity upon a battlefield or judicial yard.

2) None of these persons can claim any right to entitle himself as such by virtue of experience at actual and earnest Medieval or Renaissance combat to the death.

3) To do so notwithstanding the previous two reasons is an insult to the real Fechtmeister of the past and a fraud to modern beginners looking for an authority to guide them.

What I stated is what I think. The philosophy of ARMA would more or less seem to concur. Although I personally would consider a few men deserving of that title, said men shun those titles, probably for the reasons I stated.

Simply put, I think that no man today should be calling himself Fechtmeister.

JH
JLH

*Wehrlos ist ehrlos*

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Mike Chidester
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Re: Modern Fechtmeister

Postby Mike Chidester » Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:02 pm

By contrast, ARMA has refrained from even outlining requirements for the rank of Provost, let alone Fechtmeister, precisely because the leadership doesn't believe anyone to be experienced enough to merit it.
Michael Chidester
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"I have met a hundred men who would call themselves Masters, and taking all of their skill together they have not the makings of three good Scholars, let alone one Master."

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Shane Smith
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Re: Modern Fechtmeister

Postby Shane Smith » Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:54 pm

I am content to be known among my peers as a competent Swordsman based on the quality of my work at the hilt.That is enough. Titles mean nothing. Performance and scholarship are what matter in my opinion. Let others claim any title they wish, I'll be perfecting my skill as best I may.
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M Wallgren
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Re: Modern Fechtmeister

Postby M Wallgren » Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:46 am

Well! When I look at your avatar I would say it´s not only your hiltwork that is good! <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

(Sorry as an uncureble halfsworder I could not resist...)

Martin
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Jon Pellett
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Re: Modern Fechtmeister

Postby Jon Pellett » Tue Jun 14, 2005 3:10 pm

Jeffrey:

I'm fairly certain "Fechtmeister" is modern German for (sport) fencing master (teacher.) Hence it is a perfectly legitimate title.

I do agree with your main point, that we don't have (and arguably cannot have) masters of HEMA, in the North American sense! Anyone who declares himself such is highly suspect (we all remember Mr. Acutt <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />)

Cheers

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Sean_Gallaty
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Re: Modern Fechtmeister

Postby Sean_Gallaty » Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:59 pm

Who or what is a mister Acutt?
Start with yourself.

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Jeffrey Hull
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Re: Modern Fechtmeister

Postby Jeffrey Hull » Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:08 pm

These dudes of whom I wrote were not sporting fencers, but rather historical fencers (Med &amp; Ren), and are from both the German and English speaking parts of the modern world.

In any case, whether these modern guys are sport fencers, historic fencers, faire-tourneyers, whatever, I think that any modern title of *Meister* is meaningless compared to *Meister* in the past.

For example, the title of *Meister* among the Teutonic Order during the time 1200-1500 AD truly meant vastly more than it could today. The same could be said of any other order, army or school of that period vis-a-vis modern times.

JH
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Justin Blackford
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Re: Modern Fechtmeister

Postby Justin Blackford » Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:38 pm

Actually, I should point out that the people I instruct in my study group constantly refer to me as "Fechtmeister". I know that I am not nearly deservant of the title, and I have told them many times before that I am not (based on the aforetold reasons you stated at the beginning of this thread), but they won't stop saying "Jawohl, Fechtmeister!" when I instruct them in something. The scary thing is, they aren't joking when they say that. The neighbors who become our spectators during our training sessions must think I'm working a Stormtrooper camp or something.
I have tried to get them to maybe just call me "Fecht Lehrer" or "Fight Teacher". I am hardly a master of anything. I declare myself to be a moderately skilled fencer. I'm good at the basics and I can defeat every one of my fellow scholars, even if they attack me together. But, they won't stop with the "Jawohl, Fechtmeister!" I feel guilty because I know that since the old masters are long dead, and their tradition with them under a haze of gunpowder, I think I am insulting them. Or at least my fellow fencers are. I am a Scholar. And so are my fellows with whom I train. We are just Scholars of the blade, since the need of the art in real combat has died. But, nevertheless, they insist on "Fechtmeister". It's frustrating, and yet oddly flattering. I don't know what I'm gonna do.

Justin
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Zach Palfreyman
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Re: Modern Fechtmeister

Postby Zach Palfreyman » Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:32 am

I don't think a title means nothing. I have been practicing almost every day and hopefully my hard work will pay off and I'll go up in rank sometime, cause that would be cool IMO.

Jay Vail
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Re: Modern Fechtmeister

Postby Jay Vail » Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:22 am

A "fechtmeister" is a fight master. Meister in German has the same meaning as it does in English: "master, foreman, or champion." See Cassell's German Dictionary, p. 413.

You are not entitled to call yourself a meister or allow anyone else to call you that. If anyone tries it it should be immediately disavowed and discouraged. If your training partners do not stop the practice, it is only because you are not being firm enough. The only person who even comes close to being qualified to be called a master is Clements, and you will note that he does not permit that practice.

This meister/master business is no small thing. It is not a game. It is very serious. The credibility of our organization is at stake. Too many half-trained punks have been eager to proclaim themselves masters and to found their own styles, which are invariably made-up trash. They are only defrauding the public and their students.

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Allen Johnson
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Re: Modern Fechtmeister

Postby Allen Johnson » Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:39 am

I pretty much agree with Jay. I really feel that if someone can be considered a master of this art they have to consistently prove themselves to be effective at it, under duress. Meaning, you pretty much have to be in a life or death struggle with sharps. There is no sane way we can re-create what that must be like in the brain and how our bodies react to it. Thats what being a 'master' of anything is. Being able to time after time perform whatever it is at or near perfection. I hope (and REALLY doubt) that none of us ever have to figure out what that feeling is like. But even if some freak thing happens and you survive and even survive well- thats one instance- you would need many. My two cents on it anyway...
"Why is there a picture of a man with a sword in his head on your desk?" -friends inquiry

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Bill Welch
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Re: Modern Fechtmeister

Postby Bill Welch » Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:58 am

Maybe they are just tring to get under your skin in a good natured way <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> , and dont see it as insulting to anyone, but maybe instead of fussing about it you could explain why you dont think it is "flattering".
I agree with Shane rank or title means absolutly nothing (except in a military, or school setting and only then so you know who is in charge.) and Master of anything has always rubbed me the wrong way.
Thanks, Bill
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Gene Tausk
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Re: Modern Fechtmeister

Postby Gene Tausk » Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:57 am

Amen to that, Jay! Your post is dead-on.

I know of no one in ARMA who will refer to himself as a "master," "maestro" or grand poo-bah of anything related to historical fencing or HEMA skills. That is one of the reasons I am proud to be a member of this organization. We recognize and accept and appreciate that we are all students on this path.

If your group members are referring to you as "master" in ANY language, and you are not putting a stop to it immediately, something is wrong.

If members of your study group (notice I did not say "your students") will still not stop the practice after you insist upon it, then it is time for them to leave. They have no business being in a study group if they are going to embrace that nonsense.

In relation to some earlier posts, the word "master" in English obviously carries connotations that may not exist in other languages (ex: Spanish uses the term "maestro" as "teacher", but "maestro" is often translated as "master" into English). That is one of the reasons we do not use this term in ARMA.

I cannot speak for John on this and certainly do not make this claim, but I am reasonably certain that anyone using the term "master" in ANY language in ARMA related activities is up for having his membership questioned and possibly revoked. I, for one, would stand behind revokation of membership for the individual or study group that permits this practice. It is an insult to ARMA and everything we stand for.

So - long story short. If your study group members are using this inappropriate term to address you, put an end to it.


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JeffGentry
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Re: Modern Fechtmeister

Postby JeffGentry » Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:56 am

Hey Gene

I cannot speak for John on this and certainly do not make this claim, but I am reasonably certain that anyone using the term "master" in ANY language in ARMA related activities is up for having his membership questioned and possibly revoked. I, for one, would stand behind revokation of membership for the individual or study group that permits this practice. It is an insult to ARMA and everything we stand for.


I would second that myself.

Jeff
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Justin Blackford
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Re: Modern Fechtmeister

Postby Justin Blackford » Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:24 pm

I'm not arguing with anybody on this. I should point out again that I did in no way proclaim myself to be a "Meister", but the fellow scholars of mine are the ones who insist.
I agree that it may be good-natured ribbing by them, but I do not endorse their usage of the term.
I have told them all that people like Liechtenaur, Talhoffer, Capo Ferro, Ringeck, Meyer, etc. were the real masters and that I am merely a student of their works. I have been firm, but they insist on calling me something(I suppose out of respect). They are under the impression that I am a "Master" because I am more studied than they are and can defeat them so easily, but I have tried to come up with a different term of sorts to ween them off of the "Fectmeister" crap.
I was thinking of having my whole group just call themselves "scholars". Thus, it would make me the "senior" or "chief scholar" of the group, since I have been doing this longer than all of them and I am the one who teaches them the basics. Maybe just calling themselves "students" and myself the "student teacher" might get through. Though, if someone else joined who had been doing this longer than me, I would relinquish the title without protest and allow their usage of it. I know that titles are just titles, but these people insist on calling me something. I still think that "Lehrer(instructor)" would be a fine idea. I have been very firm in this, but when 8 people speak at once and insist on giving me something to (I'm guessing) show respect for me, I feel that I have to give them something.
But, to repeat, it will not be "Master" of anything. I have not endorsed this usage, nor will I. And, yes, I do believe that if anybody even comes close to the title "Master" it is most certainly Mr. Clements.

Justin
A man believes what he wants to believe. - Cuchulainn


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