Schielhau of Doebringer

[philippewillaume]

Hello
Jake jeff, I think we are on the same page. From what jak described I think it is the same thing that I tried to describe in the other thread,


If we want to be the devil advocate we can in the talhoffer picture we have moved to the left, which was the original problem in this discussion.
I am mean at best the right foot is on the centerline but the left foot is on the left
I am not against your idea of triangulation; I am using only ringeck but is use the other to chek that the fundamantal principlal applies to what they do.

VD and goliath clearly say to reverse the sword and then strike.
so verwent dein schwert und hau gegn / seinem hau mit der kurtzen schneid lang aus geragkten armenn
So reverse you sword and strike long against his blow with the short edge out of extended arms

But at the end of the day that is close to meyer or ringeck description and we need to remember that all those strike are against an other strike and that is not the same thing as breaking a guard.

[Jake_Norwood]

But at the end of the day that is close to meyer or ringeck description and we need to remember that all those strike are against an other strike and that is not the same thing as breaking a guard.

Yes, precisely. Err, I think.

Here' the description of the Schiller from Mike Rassmussens's translation of Meyer at www.schielhau.org:

Schielhauw

Schielhauw ist auch ein Oberhauw, aber darumb also genant das er gleich mit einer kleinen Schiele gehawen, wirt also gemacht, stell dich in die Hut des Tags oder Zorns (davon im dritten Capitel) mit dem Lincken fuß vor, wirt auff dich gehauwen, so Hauwe hingegen, doch im streich verwende dein kurtze schneid gegen seinem streich, unnd Schlag mit ebichter hand zuglich mit ihme hinein, trit mit deinem Rechten Fuß wol auff seine Lincke seiten, und nimm den Kopf geschwindt mit, so hastu ihm recht gethan, und stehest wie das grosser Bild in nechst gedachter Figur mit dem G gegen der lincken anzeiget.

Glancing Strike
The Glancing Strike is also a High strike, but has been so named in that one closes with a small glancing blow, which is done thus: put yourself in the Guard of the Roof or Wrath (as shown in the third chapter) with your left foot forward, from which you will be striking, and while striking be sure to wind your short edge against his strike, and hit with inverting hands at the same time as closing with him , step fully with your Right Foot toward his left side, and so quickly take his head, thus have you done it rightly, and will stand as shown by the figures fighting on the left side of illustration G.

The emphasis is mine. Here Meyer advocates turning the sword on contact, if I read it right--or at least turning it immediately prior...not necessarily "opening" with the short edge, inverting the hands along with the step. That says to me that perhaps the hands were not inverted until the step, which, as we know, is coordinated with the actual striking of the target.

While it's true that he doesn't say anything along the lines of "invert when they acheive the bind" (and Meyer's good about those sorts of details), we may have been overlooking the details of timing that he may be giving us.

So mayber Meyer's Schiller isn't different at all...I like that idea!

Jake


Jake

[JeffGentry]

Hey Philippe

I know what you are saying at least this has gotten the discussion moving forward, so i think we are on the right track.

I don't think I have ever actualy seen an illustration of the schielhau breaking plough, it is usualy described, so once we get a feel for doing it high the breaking of plough maybe easier.

if I read it right--or at least turning it immediately prior...not necessarily "opening" with the short edge, inverting the hands along with the step

exactly, you do the turn as you are stepping, which will push there "strike" aside and open up there head for you hit with the short edge.

While it's true that he doesn't say anything along the lines of "invert when they acheive the bind" (and Meyer's good about those sorts of details), we may have been overlooking the details of timing that he may be giving us.

So mayber Meyer's Schiller isn't different at all...I like that idea!

Meyer's schiller is no diffrent, The timing is important against the "Buffalo" because he is striking, if we are breaking a gaurd it is a little less important because we are striking first so we don't care what he does if this doesn't hit him we are going to stab him.




Jeff

[Jared L. Cass]

"exactly, you do the turn as you are stepping, which will push there "strike" aside and open up there head for you hit with the short edge."

"Meyer's schiller is no diffrent, The timing is important against the "Buffalo" because he is striking, if we are breaking a gaurd it is a little less important because we are striking first so we don't care what he does if this doesn't hit him we are going to stab him."

<img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> Yep and right on IMO. That's how I do it too(but didn't explain so well). Funny, this thread is a perfect example of how if all of us were together in person, it wouldn't have been nearly so painful (but insightful)!

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

[Jake_Norwood]

Now we need video at speed.

Jake

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jake

If no one else get's it on video before then i'll see if i can on sunday.

Jeff

[philippewillaume]

I think thay are all saying the same thing but because they do not set up teh gag the same way, sometimes because we (and thats includes me) have a tendancy to assume they are describing exactly the same thing. Hence the setup/slight variation sometime gets in the way.

But in our case here i think we have an interpretation that fits all even with a stict interpretation of each verses.

I do not think it does not really change anything if you turn the sword during or before. If you are stepping more circularily, turning te sword before seems more "natural"
and if you step more linearily the turn the sord as you strike is may be easier.

that being said i have a tendancy to go linear and i can do either turning the sword before or as the strike progress.
in counter stike i tend to turn the sword before
and in breaking the guard i turn the sword as the strike progress.

phil
PS yeah that would have been a 20 minute discution, were we able to meet in the flesh.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Philippe

yeah that would have been a 20 minute discution, were we able to meet in the flesh.

You realy think it would have been that long?


Jeff

[Jeffrey Hull]

Armateers:

Again, in support of the more controversial proposals as to Schielhau versus Pflug, please look at pages 14v and 37r of the Jorg Wilhalm longsword HTML or PDF available to members only at Armaria.

There you shall see conflicts in those pictures rather similar to the things I advocated originally in this post.

Again, those with allowed access may send me a PM to comment.

JH

[Jake_Norwood]

I'll throw in that without text, those plates, while not useless, are hardly conclusive of anything. If you look at Keith Meyer's book on unarmed combat, with special attention to the Fiore and Wallerstein plates, you'll note that after those plates were translated most of Keith's interpretations were way, way off. What I see is a sturzhau, which may or may not be the same thing as a schiller. Where are you going with these plates?

It's still a good book, though.

Jake

[Jeffrey Hull]

Jake:

I just think the possibilities they present are interesting vis-a-vis this subject of Schiel versus Pflug. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

JH