Modern Fechtmeister

[Jon Pellett]

Jay:

A "fechtmeister" is a fight master. Meister in German has the same meaning as it does in English: "master, foreman, or champion." See Cassell's German Dictionary, p. 413."

My "Wörterbuch der Deutschen Sprache" (Deutscher Taschenbuch Verlag, 1997) gives among its definitions "2.3 Führer, Lehrer, Vorbild," as well as the meanings you suggest. Fechtmeister does not appear, but it is defined in LEO's Deutsch-Englisches Wörterbuch as "fencing master [sport.]" A Google search brings up numerous references in German to Fechtmeistern in a modern context. Any native German speakers around want to clarify?

Furthermore, one of the English meanings of "master" is "teacher".
OED: "II. A teacher; a person qualified to teach.
11. A man to whose care a child or children are committed for instruction, esp. in a school; a male teacher or tutor; a schoolmaster. Also: a male teacher of a particular subject; chiefly with distinguishing word, as dancing, French master, etc. (see also the first elements)."

Too many half-trained punks have been eager to proclaim themselves masters and to found their own styles, which are invariably made-up trash. They are only defrauding the public and their students.

Yeah, the instant 10th Dan phenomenon. I don't see how this can be prevented by barring a certain title, though. If you know any such people, expose them. Before studying under a new organization or teacher, research them. It's the same as Eastern martial arts, I guess.

JH:

In any case, whether these modern guys are sport fencers, historic fencers, faire-tourneyers, whatever, I think that any modern title of *Meister* is meaningless compared to *Meister* in the past.

For example, the title of *Meister* among the Teutonic Order during the time 1200-1500 AD truly meant vastly more than it could today. The same could be said of any other order, army or school of that period vis-a-vis modern times.

I agree entirely! However, I don't see what is wrong with using the term itself. In a modern context, it does not imply being able to teach the original art, but rather an interpretation. That is all it can ever be, barring time travel.

You guys have every right to prevent the use of the term in your own organization, and AFAICT the community as whole has been mostly avoiding it. And I agree with you guys that this is a good thing - keeps us humble. But if someone chooses to use the title, and they are competent and completely clear about what they do and do not know, then I think that is a valid choice, because it is a valid use of the word. That said, have you contacted the guys in question? You might be able to persuade them.

Cheers

PS Sean - Acutt was a rather pathetic fraud who tried to become a grand HEMA muckty-muck on the basis of fake titles, plagiarized work, and laughable bad history. See these SFI threads:
McDojo or just McDodo?
The World Gladiatoria Association (?!)
The Truth about Jamie Acutt

[David Craig]

If members of your study group (notice I did not say "your students") will still not stop the practice after you insist upon it, then it is time for them to leave. They have no business being in a study group if they are going to embrace that nonsense. SNIP

I am reasonably certain that anyone using the term "master" in ANY language in ARMA related activities is up for having his membership questioned and possibly revoked. I, for one, would stand behind revokation of membership for the individual or study group that permits this practice. It is an insult to ARMA and everything we stand for.

Since everyone is piling on, here's a contrary opinion. With the caveat that I know none of the people involved, it appears to me that kicking them out of the study group or disbanding it because they are using the term "fechtmeister" would be a gross overreaction, and an example of creating a problem where none exists.

It is likely that they are using the term in a joking/affectionate way. And it is highly unlikely that by using the term they intend to equate their leader with Hans Talhoffer or Sigmund Ringeck. Calling your leader fechmeister is a far cry from the leader himself actually claiming to be a master. As long as he realizes -- as he obviously does -- that he isn't a fechtmeister, and doesn't take it seriously, in my opinion there is no problem. On the other hand, making a big deal about it and threatening to kick people out would be a good way to wreck a study group.

David

[Jay Vail]

Calling your leader fechmeister is a far cry from the leader himself actually claiming to be a master.

By permitting the practice the group leader accepts the title. It is the same as claiming it.

No one can claim to be a "master" of historical European martial arts. Any one who either claims such a title or allows himself to be addressed in that fashion is a fake. THere are too many such fakes in the martial arts world, European and Asian, along with the unjustifiably swelled heads that go along with "mastership."

[Jay Vail]

I should point out again that I did in no way proclaim myself to be a "Meister", but the fellow scholars of mine are the ones who insist.

Justin, I am sorry but this is simply not persuasive. There are many of us in ARMA who have many years of martial arts experience and we have given seminars and instruction to many training partners. None of us have this problem of being mistaken for a master. We establish up front that we are not masters, merely fellow students seeking the truth, and we do not tolerate for a second any attempt to use unearned and undeserved titles. If your training partners "insist" on calling you a master, the responsibility for that lapse lies with you, not with them.

[Gene Tausk]

Justin:

You wrote:

"I was thinking of having my whole group just call themselves "scholars". Thus, it would make me the "senior" or "chief scholar" of the group, since I have been doing this longer than all of them and I am the one who teaches them the basics. Maybe just calling themselves "students" and myself the "student teacher" might get through. Though, if someone else joined who had been doing this longer than me, I would relinquish the title without protest and allow their usage of it. I know that titles are just titles, but these people insist on calling me something. I still think that "Lehrer(instructor)" would be a fine idea. I have been very firm in this, but when 8 people speak at once and insist on giving me something to (I'm guessing) show respect for me, I feel that I have to give them something. "

How about you just follow the ARMA curriculum on this? It seems to work for every other study group so why should yours be any different? General Free Scholars, Senior Free Scholars, etc. are the appropriate ranks. As an ARMA member, you should be familiar with this.

Note there is a difference between an ARMA rank (GFS, SFS) and being the director of a study group. A rank indicates your position within the organization. A director handles the mundane challenges of finding a place to train, setting up the training times, etc.

Respectfully, calling you a "Lehrer" is not a good idea. Why do you need this title? The members of my study group call me by my first name, which is fine by me. In fact, every study group I have seen has their members call each other by their first name.

I am becoming a little concerned when you keep repeating that the members of your study group refuse to listen to you. Why is this? If they refuse to listen to you with regards to the simple instruction to stop calling you "Meister," what will happen when you give instructions for sparring safely? Will they ignore this as well?

I would examine why the members of your study group are not following these simple instructions. If you are telling these members to stop calling you "fechtmeister" yet they do this anyway, something is wrong. It can be, as Jay has pointed out, that you are not firm enough. Or, it could be that these study group members are incapable of following directions. Certainly your request to stop calling you "fechtmeister" seems simple enough.

I would respectfully suggest that as a member of ARMA you follow our guidelines on these matters. They are well thought out and are designed, in part, to prevent the "master mystique" which manifests itself in other arts and organizations to rear its ugly head here.


-------------->>>>>>>>>>>gene tausk
SFS
Director - Houston ARMA Southside Study Group

[David Craig]

Jay,

Justin, I am sorry but this is simply not persuasive.

I repeat what I said in my post above. This is an example of trying to create a problem where none exists. Did you read this section that Justin wrote earlier?

I know that I am not nearly deservant of the title, and I have told them many times before that I am not (based on the aforetold reasons you stated at the beginning of this thread), but they won't stop saying "Jawohl, Fechtmeister!" when I instruct them in something. SNIP.
I have tried to get them to maybe just call me "Fecht Lehrer" or "Fight Teacher". I am hardly a master of anything.

Clearly he is not claiming to be a master. And he has already explained to his group that he isn't, and has asked them to stop calling him Fechtmeister. A study group isn't a military organization or even a school. He can't make other adults stop saying something if they wish to, without appearing to be a jerk, causing resentment and disrupting the group.

David

[Gene Tausk]

David:

You wrote:

"Since everyone is piling on, here's a contrary opinion. With the caveat that I know none of the people involved, it appears to me that kicking them out of the study group or disbanding it because they are using the term "fechtmeister" would be a gross overreaction, and an example of creating a problem where none exists.

It is likely that they are using the term in a joking/affectionate way. And it is highly unlikely that by using the term they intend to equate their leader with Hans Talhoffer or Sigmund Ringeck. Calling your leader fechmeister is a far cry from the leader himself actually claiming to be a master. As long as he realizes -- as he obviously does -- that he isn't a fechtmeister, and doesn't take it seriously, in my opinion there is no problem. On the other hand, making a big deal about it and threatening to kick people out would be a good way to wreck a study group."

First, ARMA, like every other organization on this planet, has its own rules and guidelines. One of our most important guidelines is that we are all students and no one is a "master." We do not use this title and John has already written a number of articles to explain our reasoning. If you have any questions on this, review the articles.

If members of a study group refuse to follow this basic guideline, they are not following the ARMA curriculum. It is as simple as that. As I stated on an earlier post, if a member or group members cannot follow this simple request, what will happen in sparring when they do not follow our safety protocol?

Second, just like any organization has the right to expel members who do not follow the rules, ARMA has that right. Once again, I cannot and do not speak for John on this. However, I do not believe any ARMA member would be happy to know that a study group exists where our rules are ignored. This reflects poorly on our organization as a whole.

Third - calling someone "fechtmeister" again and again and the recipient not doing anything about this leads to several issues. First - new members will soon expect that this is the correct "title" by which to address a person. Second - when demonstrations are performed, outside observers, after hearing someone addressed time and again by that title, will make the reasonable assumption that the person is indeed a "fechtmeister." Third - whether the person believes it or not, there is some part of his or her ego that accepts this title. Don't believe me? What would the reaction of the person be where instead of being called "fechtmeister" they were addressed by fellow members of their study group by a term of profanity? Would they put up with this as well?

No, this is not a problem where the world will stop and take notice. This is not cancer research. But - it is a problem. And, it needs to be addressed.


----------------->>>>>>>>gene tausk
SFS
Director - ARMA Houston Southside Study Group

[David Craig]

Gene,

I understand your points, however, I stand by my opinion that making something like this an issue is elevating a relatively trivial thing into a serious problem.

First, ARMA, like every other organization on this planet, has its own rules and guidelines. One of our most important guidelines is that we are all students and no one is a "master."

Yes, there is no disagreement on that point. But since Justin explictly stated in this thread that he does not consider himself a master, and has so informed his group, I don't see the looming problem. His situation is in no way analogous to the aforementioned Mr. Acutt, who claimed to be a master of various disciplines, established a website, had books for sale, etc.

As I stated on an earlier post, if a member or group members cannot follow this simple request, what will happen in sparring when they do not follow our safety protocol?

This illustrates my point. Failing to follow safety protocols would be a serious problem, which could lead to injuries or even death. In my opinion, this does not compare to the behavior of members who are merely using an inappropriate title for their group leader -- a title which that leader rejects as underserved.

Second, just like any organization has the right to expel members who do not follow the rules, ARMA has that right. Once again, I cannot and do not speak for John on this. However, I do not believe any ARMA member would be happy to know that a study group exists where our rules are ignored. This reflects poorly on our organization as a whole.

Of course any organization has the right to expel members for rules violations. But to me, the question is whether or not that would be appropriate or useful in this particular case. I think not; you may feel differently.

As for your third point, I believe you are reading an awful lot into this whole thing. Justin's posts on this thread don't indicate in any way that he somehow believes he is a fechtmeister, or will come to think that in the future, merely as a result of being addressed that way. If people call me an a**hole over and over that doesn't mean I start considering myself one <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />.

And if it were to happen at a public demonstration, the average person would have no idea what a fechtmeister was, and would have to ask. The issue could then be easily resolved by simply saying something like: "that's just what the group calls me. I'm not really a master of anything, just a more experienced student. No one alive is a master of these arts."

David

[JeffGentry]

hey David

The "problem" as i see it, is either 1) new people who join the group and do not know the "joke" and think he is a Master and ARMA approved as such, 2) uniformed people who have heard the word "meister" in movie's and so equate it with master and just figure on there own he is again an ARMA approved master.

The problem is not realy the group understanding, It is those who do not know what ARMA is or what we do or how we train and get the wrong impression, I know our group practice's in a park and people are all the time stopping to watch or chat, and hence we try to present the public with an image of scholarship and athletesism not title's, as we know in ARMA title's do not fend off blow's and the title's we have are earned through (literaly in some case's) Blood, sweat, and tear's and are not something that are retained indefinately if our skill's wain we could lose the GFS, SFS, or even the title of Provost, because we as ARMA member's have high expectation's of those who hold rank in this organization and even the most senior among us do not feel they have the skill to earn the title of "Fechtmeister" or whatever translation people use to indicate complete prowess in the HEMA.

IMO it is not a "problem" with him or the group as such it is problematic with the image it may present to new comer's and the publlic at large.

Jeff

Jeff

[Randall Pleasant]

It is likely that they are using the term in a joking/affectionate way.

In the ARMA DFW study group we make it clear to everyone that practice is a martial arts class, not a social gathering. A little laughter and joking does make practice more enjoyable, but there are limits. We don't allow joking that could hurt any individual member. Nor should we allow joking that could hurt the ARMA organization.

[David Craig]

Jeff,

IMO it is not a "problem" with him or the group as such it is problematic with the image it may present to new comer's and the publlic at large.

I agree. My entire point was that I don't see it as a problem within the group that warrants any drastic measures. But yes, if a new person shows up, he should take the opportunity to again make clear that he really isn't a fechtmeister, and that no living masters exist, etc. Similarly, in a public situation, it would be useful to get the members to knock it off if outsiders are observing and could get the wrong idea. And if it happened anyway, it would be good to make a statement disavowing any such title. Then no misunderstandings would arise.

Overall, my attitude toward this is that everyone has friends who can be annoying, irritating, stupid, or whatever at certain times. And sometimes they don't listen when you ask them to stop. But if you value them as friends -- in other words, if their positives outweigh their negatives -- then you put up with their nonsense in order to remain friends. Similarly, if you have a good group in most respects, but the members annoy you by giving you a title you haven't earned and refuse to stop, you have to decide whether or not that one problem is really worth getting rid of them and trying to start a new group.

David

[David Craig]

Randall,

In the ARMA DFW study group we make it clear to everyone that practice is a martial arts class, not a social gathering. A little laughter and joking does make practice more enjoyable, but there are limits. We don't allow joking that could hurt any individual member. Nor should we allow joking that could hurt the ARMA organization.

Well, if it's your group then it's your rules. If your group felt that people should be kicked out for using the term fechtmeister inappropriately, then that would be your option. But it would still be my option to consider that an extreme overreaction.

And just to be clear, I'm not supporting the use of undeserved martial titles, and agree that those doing it should stop when asked. The more you learn the more you realize that the real masters probably forgot more than any of us will ever know, even if we practice for thirty or forty years.

David

[Jay Vail]

Well said, Gene. I'm with you all the way.

[Gene Tausk]

David:

You wrote:

"As for your third point, I believe you are reading an awful lot into this whole thing. Justin's posts on this thread don't indicate in any way that he somehow believes he is a fechtmeister, or will come to think that in the future, merely as a result of being addressed that way. If people call me an a**hole over and over that doesn't mean I start considering myself one .

And if it were to happen at a public demonstration, the average person would have no idea what a fechtmeister was, and would have to ask. The issue could then be easily resolved by simply saying something like: "that's just what the group calls me. I'm not really a master of anything, just a more experienced student. No one alive is a master of these arts." "

That last statement makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Let me get this straight: this particular ARMA study group puts on a demonstration. The leader of the study group is referred to as "fechtmeister" by the other study group members. Audience members, hearing this, go up to the leader and start calling him "fechtmeister" based on what the other study group members were calling him. Now, in response, the leader states, "oh no, I'm not really a fechtmeister. That's just what the other study group members call me. I'm just an experienced student."

The average audience member will walk away either thinking: "hunh?" or "I'm dealing with a bunch of crackheads." Either way, it makes a poor impression. What is the point of being addressed by a certain title unless that person has earned that title? In the military, do you think that, even as a joke, a captain will allow himself to be referred to as a general? I'd like to hear what Tim or Jake have to say about this one. If a non-lawyer continually allows himself to be referred to as a lawyer in my state of Texas, he could be accused of falsely holding himself out as a lawyer, a felony offense. As an attorney who sat on my state's Unauthorized Practice of Law Committee, I can assure you that the Texas bar takes these things very seriously. Holding oneself out as a member of that profession or standard when one has no right to hold himself out as such is wrong. It is a false representation.

Either the person is a fechtmeister, in which case he deserves to be called a fechtmeister, or he is not, in which case he does not deserve the title. If he does not deserve the title, then why call him that in the first place? Especially calling the person a "fechtmeister" again and again.

Are you suggesting that throughout class every time the person is referred to as "fechtmeister" by his fellow study group participants he retorts by saying, "but remember, I'm not really a fechtmeister." That is going to be one long class with little being accomplished except for useless verbal banter.

And the reason I mentioned profanity is as follows: if the person was continually called a profane name every time by fellow students, my guess is that he will probably do something about it. At the very least, he will probably leave the group if his fellow group members continue to address him by profanity. If his fellow group members are affixing a title to him that he does not want or deserve, and they will not stop affixing this title, then at the very least he can do is leave the group.



--------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
SFS
Director - Houston ARMA Southside Study Group

[Matt_Bruskotter]

I've been trying to follow so bare with me. It seems generally agreed that no one should claim a title they haven't deserved or earned.

Then what does one have to do to claim the title of "Meister" or "Teacher?" Not that I want to. I don't care for any title. I'd like to hear individual opinions and official ARMA opinions. I figured this would be a good discussion.

Also, does anyone know how other martial arts groups allow someone to claim the title of sensei? If they have a "teacher" rank, why can't we? Not that we have to be like them. I'm just trying to make a point. I assume that means teacher too. I also assume it's up to the individual group what criteria need to be met to claim the title. I would guess that any practitioner of Eastern Martial Arts Swordery (kenjutsu) has never actually been in a sword battle either but they still claim titles of sensei and have ranks (ex. fifth don I think?)

I know ARMA has it's own tier system of rank but I fail to see the point in the argument if we already have a rank system and meister isn't one of them (should it be?). Therefore, as I asked above, what makes a "meister?"

I'm not taking sides, I'm merely curious. I don't mean to cause hostile debate. Thanks.