Dagger Stabs

[philippewillaume]

That is a tricky question.
Just for background, I use only Ringeck.
Here is my though on the subject.
I think dagger rondel or bollok is where single-sword, sword and buckler and ringen come together.
Because you can use the dagger as any of those. I do not think a single blow is likely disable your opponent straight on so may be the idea is to get into a position where you can do him proper and plenty whilst he can not reciprocate the favor

Personally I use the same principle as the murder stoke and unterhalten in wrestling To gain entry this is built in from the sword and bucler or messer (or eventually ringen in the case where they use the empty hand to lead/clear the way)

Personally I think stab slash and schnitt are all good but I would have said that there are good to get entry so that you can get the unterhalten or the murder strike (in order to continue with the wrestling).

[Matthew_Anderson]

Phillipe: "Just for background, I use only Ringeck".

So...since Ringeck's manuscript doesn't contain any dagger material, you apply the principles of the wrestling and other weapons Ringeck writes about to dagger play?

I think the wrestling would certainly apply and be useful. I kind of view dagger fighting as wrestling with a knife anyway. I'm not sure how the other weapon material would apply though, except in a very general sense, as all weapon fighting contains some common principles. I'm a big Ringeck fan, and I wish we did have some dagger material from him. I'd bet though, that it would be very similar to what we see in Talhoffer, Codex Wallerstein, and other German sources.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Hey Matt,

This is where I differ a little from alot of folks. I do not see dagger fighting as wrestling with a dagger, I think they are two seperate animals alltogether. Granted, once you wrestle if you have a dagger you can probably use it at some point- but the committed dagger fight requires much diffrent thinking.

I think that the dagger fight is much more akin to the longsword enviroment than the wrestling, obviously the length and makeup of the weapon changes quite a bit but in terms of the actions and tactical considerations it's really quite the same kind of fight.-ie looking, searching for openings using feints and winding, binding etc... think of both of your arms as the sword and use them in conjunction. The non-weapon hand becomes so very important and together with the weapon hand form your defense and offense as well as moving in and out of range etc... I have found that if you just akin it to wrestling it leaves you open to getting poked way too much- Aaron

[Matt_Bruskotter]

I do think dagger play is quite different from wrestling. When I first tried the dagger I thought it was just like wrestling. So I used my wrestling background to try to win. Big mistake. Everytime I would clinch with a guy he'd just stab me. I had to concentrate on that weapon hand and watch range and use more footwork. I agree in that I think it's more like long sword wrestling or grappling.

Still, I think the foundation to any western martial art is wrestling (or some form of grappling like judo or whatever have you). I think it gives the person a great intinct for balance and how to manipulate a body which is essential in dagger, long sword, or any weapon art. Just don't assume you can use the same techniques, but the fundamentals are there. I use them quite a bit.

As far as the stabbing, I'm not sure about getting out of range after I have stabbed a man. I think my instinct would be to hold on to him and make sure he goes down. I feel like it gives him the oppurtunity to stike back.

As far as adrenaline, who knows how someone will use those last ounces of energy when stabbed. Some will run a block away, others will come at you. Either way I think it's best to take them out quickly with targeted stabs to vital areas. I wouldn't advocate stabbing to the chest, but to the neck or belly up into the ribs from below or to the face to disorient. I'm not sure if a dagger can go through a skull but eyes are vulnerable.

[Matthew_Anderson]

When I say "wrestling" I'm including standing grappling and all the other aspects of Kampfringen. Obviously, you can't simply close with your opponent and grab him or take him down while disregarding the weapon in his hand. You will however, generally have to control his weapon arm or close off his line of attack with it with your body or arm in order to stab him without him stabbing you. This leads to a lot of standing grappling, which often leads to trips, throws, etc. as each combatant attempts to gain an advantage, protect himself, and puncture the other guy. At least this has been my experience. The length of a longsword enables you fight at a much farther range if you want to, so the wrestling only comes in when you get very close. With a dagger, if you are close enough to stab me with it, you are close enough for me to grab your arm, at least, so you may end up wrestling wether you want to or not. Take a look at Fiore's dagger material for instance. Something like 90 or so techniques, most of which include some aspect of grappling.

[JeanryChandler]

The point is they are never going to just fall over. If you take enough trauma, then you could pass out. That doesn't happen too much with knife wounds.

I think this is very true if you look at statistics on modern knife wounds, but misleading in terms of medeival warfare.

First, in support of Zachs statements, I have seen this with my own eyes. Growing up in the French Quarter in New Orleans I've seen dozens of fights where one or more of the combattants had knives, and I'd say in 9 of 10 cases the knife had almost no effect on the fight until afterword. Usually people dont even notice they have been cut or stabbed, even if they have been seriously hurt. That makes the pocket knife a pretty crappy self defense weapon, it seems fairly unlikely to STOP someone from attacking you, other than by intimidation, but it's quite likely to cause serious injuries which could have very bad long term consequenses. Almost the opposite of a cattle prod, say.

This happened to a friend of mine six months ago. He was drinking (and pretty drunk) at a bar on the balcony overlooking decatur street near Jackson Square in the French quarter, when a guy called him out to go fight outside. They were walking down some stairs to the street when the guy jostled him. When they got downstairs, he beat the guy into unconsciousness, then walked back upstairs. Only then did his girlfriend notice that he had blood on his shirt. It turned out his right lung was punctured in three places from stab wounds, (apparently inflicted in the stairwell) and the guy he fought is now in jail for attempted murder.

And yes this sort of thing is borne out by FBI statistics. However, it's worth considering that you get a lot of the same kind of thing (running for blocks or fighting for several minutes) from people who have been shot with small caliber firearms.

And on the other hand, we are really talking about modern knives. Pocket knives are designed primarily to look cool, to cut ropes and things, and to fit in your pocket. They have short usually single edged blades and are weak and will often snap when they meet strong resistence (ribs)

This is not the same with medieval daggers.

One year on Mardi Gras several friends and I witnessed a bouncer at a local pub, a big man, get stabbed by another guy with a bayonett. He took two steps and fell down dead.

I know it was a bayonett, with an 8" blade, because I almost had to testify at the manslaughter trial. The guy who did it ended up pleading guilty and is now in Anglola.

'Point' is though, when it comes to dagger fighting, it's worth keeping in mind that not all knives are created equal. If you look at ancient daggers, these are long, stiff, weapons which WILL reach internal organs if you thrust hard. This is especially true for the more multi-purpose daggers (as opposed to specialized armor piercing weapons like the Rondel) Look at the old Roman Pugio for example. That thing is like a garden shovel. It's extremely wide yet curved elegantly away from a very sharp point, and of course sharp on both edges. This thing is going to split open organs like apples and cut arteries like rubber bands going in to almost any part of the body.

I think you cannot separate any kind of knife fighting from anatomy, (and you better be aware of your intentions if you are using a knife) but there is a huge difference between a buck knife with 3/4" wide, 3" long blade, and a double edged ballock dagger with a 1 1/2" wide, 10" long blade.

Thats why IMO modern knife fighting emphasizes cuts to the arms and such, while the Fechtbuchs go for the killing blow.

Jeanry

[Aaron Pynenberg]

agreed.....but in a knife fight I expect to get cut-where I get cut and for how long/many times, sometimes is part of the tactical fight.

I also want to avoid being "stabbed" or thrust into and damage something vital. The body can withstand lots of cuts and small punctures but not a good stab.

To get out of a knife fight or any fight totally unscathed is pretty rare indeed..but if I can manage the amount of damage I take but dish out more and be more effective and deadly about it, is the goal.

Trapping my weapon arm would be ideal, but the biggest problem I see with our current dagger fighting mentality is that there usually is the: opening of the encounter, (take up a guard move around etc....) and then everyone wants to jump into some kind of grab/seizure and deliver thier own strike.

The problem is not the actual techniques for the seizures, (as you said Matt, there are about 90+), but the middle section of the encounter, the "set-up" if you will- (how to go about manuvering into those postions)- that's were the longsword aspects come into play.....but diffrently due to the close proximity of the encounter andf the need to use the off-weapon hand.

Once this is practiced the end manuvers can be used much better keeping you from getting hit- but at that close range I know I will probably be cut a few times, but man, the last thing I want to do is roll around with you- then it's kind of up in the air( within reason of course)-

Also a stab in the face would be extremly dibilitating and probably leathal, neck area in general- but do not dicount the legs and groin area-there is alot of large caliber plumbing runing through that area. Think of the body as a hydrolic system needing the hydrolics, you cannot lose too much of it and keep functioning. Shock is a very quick acting agent-even with adrenalin- I would still back off, provided I had a good clean powerful thrust to a vital area. Aaron

[Gene Tausk]

Jeanry:

I think you make an excellent point here (no pun intended).

Many "modern" martial arts such as Krav Maga use techniques where they block the stab of a knife without moving the torso out of the way. The rationale behind this is that the practitioner wants to move in and immediately cause damage to his opponent to force a disarm.

However, it is my belief that this is based on the understanding that the attacker with a knife will have a knife that is too short to get through a block.

As you have already pointed out, a dagger that is 8" or more in length has a far different range and effect. Attempting an upper block or something to that effect without moving the torso out of the way or accounting for the superior length of the weapon can still result in a stab wound, and a mighty bad one at that, being inflicted.

It is my understanding of reading the fechtbuchen that any block without an attempt to move the torso out of the way when an opponent is carrying a dagger is not reccomended.

Perhaps this is why, as you stated, that many modern knife techniques emphasize cuts to the arm as a way to inflict damage and render an opponent disabled.

However, once again, the difference between Medieval daggers and modern knives are vast.

Brings to mind the old "Crocodile Dundee" movie where the gangster pulls out a switchblade. "That's not a knife," replies the main character. He pulls out (what looks like a Bowie but I could be mistaken) his REAL knife and says, "Now...THIS is a knife!"


------------------>>>>>>>>gene tausk
SFS
Director - ARMA Houston Southside Study Group

[Jaron Bernstein]

Well,

Meyer's chapter on knives is a combined wrestling/dagger chapter, which should tell us that the 2 are closely linked. Regarding stabbing like a boxer...my knife training comes from reading the manuals and I haven't seen anything in the texts yet one way or the other that says to stab with a full arm committed stab or quicker ones. I am essentially stabbing in the same way that I punch.

It might be interesting to "test stab" meat with a rondel in the same way we test cut with swords and see how that works.

[Jaron Bernstein]

"This is where I differ a little from alot of folks. I do not see dagger fighting as wrestling with a dagger, I think they are two seperate animals alltogether."

But how do you explain why dagger/ringen techniques are almost invariably in the same places in CW, Fiori and Meyer?

That said, Matthew is right, if you try to just go in and wrestle the guy with the knife you are going to get stuck. One thing I have seen is in our training, a rondel vs. unarmed fight is over very fast. Unarmed vs. unarmed ussually ends up with Matthew choking me out. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> But I wonder how much of that is our own deficiencies in not understanding and using the techniques as much as anything else.

Regarding fast stabs vs. big full arm ones: I prefer the fast short ones because they are harder to defend against, thus more likely to get through. I would like to see whether they do as much damage. If they don't, I can certainly give them up. I haven't seen much in the manuals one way or the other on which to use.

[Matthew_Anderson]

Aaron: "The problem is not the actual techniques for the seizures, (as you said Matt, there are about 90+), but the middle section of the encounter, the "set-up" if you will- (how to go about manuvering into those postions)- that's were the longsword aspects come into play.....but diffrently due to the close proximity of the encounter andf the need to use the off-weapon hand".

Good point, you still have to close to within striking distance while protecting yourself, just like you would with a longer weapon.

[Zach Palfreyman]

I don't think we need to do test cuts with daggers, except maybe against armor or such. Surely you've cut meat with a knife before, maybe butchered animals if you are into hunting or what-not. And there are enough stabbings every day, just research those and you'll learn more than from test cuts.

Someone asked if a dagger would go through a skull. Kitchen knives have went through a skull, so a dagger should have less trouble.

Most likely reason for dagger and grapple stuff together. Knights didnt go around knife fighting on the battlefield. You get in halfswording and get disarmed or something, then you start grappling. Well punching some guy wearing plate armor won't do too much. You need the dagger to get past the armor, or throw him on his head or something like that.

[Zach Palfreyman]

Regarding fast stabs vs. big full arm ones: I prefer the fast short ones because they are harder to defend against, thus more likely to get through. I would like to see whether they do as much damage. If they don't, I can certainly give them up. I haven't seen much in the manuals one way or the other on which to use.

That would depend on what weapon you're using and what your goal is. Maybe all you want to do is defend yourself and distract him for a second to pick up a sword. A more forceful blow will obviously do more damage. You'll need a strong blow to get through a skull, and a hard shot to the chest will penetrate deeper. You could get a 5-inch deep wound with even a 4-inch blade with a solid hit, because it compresses all that stuff.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Jaron , granted like I said before the quick jab stuff is troublesome, but and this is a big butt, how can you develop you partners if you just stick to that one technique?

I think the answer is you can't. You have to vary your technique a little from time to time. I think it's healthy in terms of learning for yourself and even more so for the sake of your partners. I have developed a counter to that move if some one continues it- first is avoidance then a forcefull smash from a downward blow on top of that quick little nimble movment usually causes enough trama that I can follow through and stab with force into the face/ chest area. Timing has to be on-but I ensure that it is very forceful- usually the dagger is dropped because it's not a committed blow.

[Jaron Bernstein]

"Jaron , granted like I said before the quick jab stuff is troublesome, but and this is a big butt, how can you develop you partners if you just stick to that one technique?"

Fair enough.

"I think the answer is you can't. You have to vary your technique a little from time to time. I think it's healthy in terms of learning for yourself and even more so for the sake of your partners."

Also true. I agree you must work the techniques (and not just "cheat") to learn them. But, from what I have seen, the counters in the manuals only work if I give a committed big stab (and then they work fairly well). Short fast jabs are harder to block. To my mind that makes them preferable to use. Why should I want to use something that is less likely to get through, besides for training purposes? That said, the techniques are in the manual for a reason.

IMO either;

1. We are doing something wrong and not making the counters work correctly. Maybe a better knife fighter could make the manual defense work against short quick stabs.

2. Maybe the short fast jabs do less damage, so that is why less defenses against them are shown.


3. Something else?

" I have developed a counter to that move if some one continues it- first is avoidance then a forcefull smash from a downward blow on top of that quick little nimble movment usually causes enough trama that I can follow through and stab with force into the face/ chest area. Timing has to be on-but I ensure that it is very forceful- usually the dagger is dropped because it's not a committed blow."

We will try that out on Sunday and see how it works. If it is that easy to defeat, then that would speak against it.

I am most interested to see what Ron Harris has to say on this in Texas.