Further cross-training w/EMA

[Justin Blackford]

Hello.

Since my last thread seems to have gotten off topic with edge parrying, I think it would be prudent to start another one about my new cross-training experiences.

Last week, my esteemed colleague whose butt I did sorely kick in the previous sessions came to another gathering with a new idea: POLEARMS!

He said that this time he had a weapon with which he could certainly beat me, in spite of the fact that he has had only rudimentary kenjutsu training from a questionable school of fence and that, for the most part, he only seems to want to incorporate ficticious TV moves in his fights.

He refused to tell me what his polearm was(apparently out of fear that if I knew about it ahead of time, I would have done research on it in order to counter his techniques). He came by and had a live bladed one and a padded waster form for sparring. I honestly can't tell you what type of polearm it was, I just didn't know, and that pleased him further and he still didn't tell me.
It was over 7 feet long, it had a rigidly tapered diamond-shaped cross section on the thrusting head, and it had two very long wings that sprung from the sides where the head meets the shaft. I wasn't sure what it was then, and I am not sure now.
But anyway, we start going at it and I thrusted him with my chosen polearm (boarspear) at least four times in a few seconds by going up and over the wings of the strange spear.
Our next bout, I took some advice from "Le Jeu de la Hache" and began the fight with the reversed end of the spear, throwing a number of quick jabs with the butt of the spear to his face. As he went to bind, I ran through, lifted the boarspear up and around the side of his head and threw him over my left knee. I then mercifully finished him with a stab to the heart(in theory of course!)
So much for his invincible polearm theory.

Then, we went back to katana vs. longsword. I dropped him like a bag of cement 8 fights out of 8. He really needs some better katana training, because I consider myself to be barely marginal with the longsword, and I mopped the floor with him.

Then, our final round was rapier and dagger vs. katana and wakisashi. He is definently much better than me there, because he disarmed my rapier in both bouts, even though I won them both by holding on to the dagger and thrusting at his exposed torso as he tried to fancifully lock and fling the rapier over his head with his bound weapons.

Next time, we are considering trying true Renaissance twohanders against nodachi or something he called a "masamune(I think?)". We may even go smallsword and/or sabre against katana.

Just interesting cross training experiences. Anybody else out there get the chance to cross train with any other martial artists out there?

Justin

[TimSheetz]

Hi Justin,

I have had very few other training experiences with other folks, but ended up with nothing but heartache and wasted time. (though it does validate our method and/or invalidate their methods depending on the outcome).

Like one would expect, an eastern art (or any type of art) practitioner does a lot better when they have actually had mock combat as part of their training and fought against uncooperative opponents with different types of weapons.

My biggest disappointment was in hand vs the knife. A tough talking Jujitsu guy was entirely ineffective against my knife attacks and I, with no formal grappling training would disarm him. Such a waste of time and energy on my part to set up that training day.

Never saw him again... he must have gone back to the Master to recover his Chi or do some Karmic rebalancing or some such.

Tim

[Matthew_Anderson]

Tim: "Like one would expect, an eastern art (or any type of art) practitioner does a lot better when they have actually had mock combat as part of their training and fought against uncooperative opponents with different types of weapons".

This is the key. It never ceases to amaze me how many Asians arts schools do no "free play" with realistic sparring weapons at all. I think even most Kenjutsu schools (and please correct me if I'm wrong) don't really emphasize it, relying instead on lots of forms and drills and test cutting. All the above are useful and important parts of training, but only fighting can teach you how to fight, and that includes fighting with weapons. Could you imagine going into a boxing match having only done shadow boxing, hitting the bag and jumping rope? Technical skills are important, they are the foundation, but only sparring can build the attributes a fighter needs to do well against an opponent.

[TimSheetz]

Good one, Matt. I was cringing imagining a boxer in just such a state! Yikes.

We are spoiled with weapons combat because when we hit we see it through the eyes of an edged weapon contacting us.. so in reality it does not deliver as much energy into our bodies since the weapon we are training for using the physics of the slope to really hurt us....

But in unarmed combat you will actually in training take much harsher hits as your training tool is pretty much the same as your fighting tool.

This really came home to me since I have been working on incorporating more strikes in to my closing actions. The affects on my opponent with a close where I simply grasped the hilt was much less than when I closed, tagged his chin/neck with an uppercut then transitioning into grabbing his hilt.

It totally re-arranged his 'world view'.

So for folks not incorporating sparring into their weapon regimen are missing the extreme damage (and therefore valuable lessons) that they would experience in the unarmed area.

My plan, keep sparring as a way to work the drills into a real time/place situation.

I hope new folks are listening to this!

Tim

[JeffGentry]

Hey Tim

This really came home to me since I have been working on incorporating more strikes in to my closing actions. The affects on my opponent with a close where I simply grasped the hilt was much less than when I closed, tagged his chin/neck with an uppercut then transitioning into grabbing his hilt.

Like the they say "everyone has a plan going into a fight until they get hit in the mouth"


Jeff

[Gene Tausk]

Hi Justin:

You seem to be fortunate in that you have found a person who is willing to spar with you based on his EMA experience...and keep doing it, despite the fact that it seems clear that his approach is not working. I would ask you to continue posting on this subject every time the two of you get together. The results not only seem to validate the ARMA approach, but also, I am curious if your friend will continue to train the same way he has despite the demonstrated ineffectiveness. In any case, as I said, you are fortunate to have found such an individual.

I have only one experience sparring with an EMA individual - a Wu Shu practitioner who looked good doing his forms, but was easily defeated using simple thrusts (he would only fight me with "boffer" weapons, but OK). I ended up asking him, when we were through, why he expended so much energy jumping around (although I knew the answer)...it was because of his forms training. This was the "way" to mastery.

Whatever.

Keep us posted of your adventures.


------------------->>>>>>>gene tausk
SFS
Director - ARMA Houston Southside Study Group

[Justin Blackford]

Hello, Gene!

[in voice mocking Yoda] Posted you shall be.

Sorry, been waiting to use that in something.

It's actually been fun cross-training with a follower of our Eastern martial counterparts. Even though he isn't that good in freeplay(as of yet), he still knows his drills and forms. Don't get me wrong, drills are very important facets of training, but I definently agree that freeplay is the only real way to gain true martial skill.
I imagine, that after he gets tired of being humiliated round after round, he'll start doing his homework and get good in freeplay rather than wasting time in a pseudo-kenjutsu school.
I should point out that in my adventures with crosstraining, neither of us has worn traditional clothing. He hasn't worn his gi and hakama and I haven't worn any traditional European clothing from the time periods of the weapons in which we have trained. Although, I do have a Renaissance era outfit with the long leather boots that extend above the knee and one of those white, baggy shirts that make me look like Michael Flatley from the "Lord of the Dance". Forgive me for the expressions, I am a historical fencer, not a historical tailor.
Maybe the type of clothing could be affecting our techniques, even if it is doing so marginally. That's worth some pondering, because modern footgear doesn't really give one the ability to fence easily.

Justin

[Jaron Bernstein]

Lance Chen and his guys cross train with EMA guys. I wonder what he might have to say about the experience.

[Lance Chan]

My experience is that we can't group EMA as one thing. Of course down to the very details, everyone of us spar with our personal little style and is unique in that sense. Even in the same style some fight better some not. Then, there're some common trends in certain styles that we can say it's their organizational behavior. However, EMA includes too many different organizational behaviors to be said as 1 big group.

One thing worth noting is when we come across the path of JSA or any katana-like sword practitioners, they seem to be unfamiliar with the ways a two edged sword can attack. The more centralized and intriguing moves of the true edge and false edge switching could often get them good. Also, going for their legs, fingers, wrists, elbows are not what they usually expect as well. They often aim for big targets, and thus only recognize and being able to defend their big targets.

These trends spread along to some Chinese martial arts and Filipinno martial artists. Blade alignment seems to be a bigger problem with the Filipinno stick practitioners when they come to use a sword. Some Chinese martial artists who never did test cutting have no sense of blade alignment either.

They also always expect my sword to be long, unwieldy and easy to defeat. I of course make use of this wrong assumption of theirs to make them regret more. <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

However, with polearms EMA seems to excel much better. That's another story.

[Matthew_Anderson]

Justin: "Maybe the type of clothing could be affecting our techniques, even if it is doing so marginally. That's worth some pondering, because modern footgear doesn't really give one the ability to fence easily".

Nope. It's the difference in training, not the clothes. I've yet to find a kenjutsu practitioner or school that does realistic free play (again, I'm waiting to be proven wrong, maybe there are some out there). In fact, many in JSA argue that "it's impossible to do it safely", or it "isn't really necessary, as the forms and drills teach you all you need to know." Imagine suggesting to a judoka that randori isn't really necessary, they would laugh you out of the dojo! The versatility of the western longsword is a factor as well, but mostly it's the realistic training that enables you to beat him IMO.

[Risto Rautiainen]

I've met an Ukrainian aikijutsu practitioner who does freeplay with protective equipment. I wouldn't (couldn't) do any sparring with him as we didn't have the gear and I lack (at the moment) the freeplay experience required. And I believe he would have wiped floor with me as he has a n:th dan black belt... The techniques he did show with limited speed with a wooden stick proved his capabilities and the fact that they do some quite tough training there at the former soviet states. Ouch... Sorry, I can't say the exact name of the school he studies under, but I gathered that it is a legitimate school.

[Mike Cartier]

Lack of freeplay is a problem in Filipino martial arts also. .
the Dog brothers are a notable exception to this rule as they train fast and hard in thier stick fighting.

[John_Clements]

A quick comment to agree with Lance. This has been my assesment over the years. Blade alignment is a big issue among them. They are usually quite vulnerable to the lower legs on cutting swords and to thrusts in general, especially against rapier. Overall, it is their false assumptions and prejudice about our craft and weapons that is most striking.

I have also found in general the higher ranked they are the less willing they are to free-play and the more dismissive of sparring. The less traditional they are however, the more willing and open to cross-training experiences.

JC

[Gene Tausk]

Hi Risto:

I would certainly agree that training in the former Soviet states is much more realistic than much of the training I have witnessed in the States (with ARMA being the happy exception, of course.)

I studied GR wrestling and Sambo when I lived in Russia...it was quite the experience.

In which country do you live? From your name, I would guess either Latvia or Lithuania?


---------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
SFS
Director - ARMA Houston Southside Study Group

[Matthew_Anderson]

Risto: "I've met an Ukrainian aikijutsu practitioner who does freeplay with protective equipment"

Interesting, did he mention what type of weapons they used? Were they boken or some type of padded weapon?