Starting off with the two-hander

[Justin Blackford]

I can never find a chance to use the wechselhau, though.


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Describe what you think the Wechselhau is, and I'll tell you what I think it is (at least according to Meyer), and we'll see what we can do. It's a vorschlag, after all.

Isn't the wechselhau just changing from one side to another by rotating either an ober or unter hau? Like in Talhoffer's 1467 manual(I think it's the second template in his longsword section, not sure, though).
What I mean by not being able to use that tactic is that my opponent can keep up such an assault that I can't seem to get a strike in unless he overextends himself by moving his body before his sword. He usually does, which is why I can defeat him half the time, but the other half, he just keeps pummeling me with such force that I get exhausted from getting slammed into so hard.

I have a really hard time using the Schiller with the larger and heavier claymore when compared to my bastard-sword.


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That's probably because we're talking about different strikes. I've got a video of what I *believe* is definitive schiller, fulfilling all the requirements and only requiring a slight change from what most of us have been doing. It's lightining fast, too. Remember, I'm a looong-sword guy. A greatsword guy. And it's fast. (Right, Stew?). We'll get you squared away.

I believe that the Schiller is an oberhau that starts Vom Dach and ultimately ends up in an Ochs of the opposite side, thus one "squints" down one side of his blade to see his enemy. It works real well for me in longsword fencing, but with a true Renaissance two-hander like the 15th century Claymore, it doesn't happen quite as quickly, and since my opponent's two-hander is longer to be more compatible with his size and weight, he can usually wechsel from the strike and withdraw to the opposite side before I thrust or schnitt towards his jugular(in theory). I would like to see this video of which you speak. Sounds like it can help.

Zwerch works, although not quick enough to stifle his attack completly, so it usually leads to winden or mutieren.


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Yes, but this is why the zwerch works. The bind is one of the strengths of the zwerch. In fact, the whole "gist" of the german "system" is that every attack needs to have a number of "outs," indes. Those are (1) a successful strike, (2) a bind followed by a thrust when he's soft at the sword, (3) a displacement or twitch (zucken) when he's hard at the bind (this includes grappling). Dobringer calls the zwerch the queen of all strikes, and I think this is why. It does these things better than any other, although I believe that EVERY strike in the german "system" requires this kind of pre-planning or thinking ahead.

Meyer (like Musashi), says that single combat and mass combat are the same, both for the fighter on the ground and for the General leading the battle. It's the Chess-like thinking ahead 2 or 3 moves that largely defines this.

You are preaching to the choir on this one. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> The Zwerch is definently one of the best moves in my arsenal of attacks because of the options it gives one from ambinden, though I still prefer to hit the head before the sword in the hopes of ending the fight a lot faster. Zwerch even proves it's effectiveness against another Zwerch launched by the adversary! When he tries to Zwerch from the bind, I found out that is a good time to either pull off the hand drucken or durchlauffen to grapple or disarm. When he gets in close, he has no chance, because he knows virtually no defense against my grappling techniques, which is why he insists on throwing a hailstrom of heavy blows my way to keep me back as far as possible before he kills me.

I told him to do his homework and read what Hanko Doebringer has to say about playfighters who "invent" their own strikes and guards that are clearly derived from the Liechtenaur system.


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But remember, he's not likely to believe you unless you can show him in the fight that what he's doing doesn't work...and it sounds like you're struggling there.

As for how to beat that...are his arms crossed or open? If it's ochs-like (which Einhorn is), try attacking to the elbows with an exended krump, and be prepared for actions at the bind.

His "Schranckhut" that he thinks he came up with looks like the one from Talhoffer's template 23 in the 1467 publication. I can beat him from that particular guard if I'm close enough to thrust from the Ochs on the opposite side, but otherwise he'll unwind his hands and strike before I close in.
As for his Einhorn, I have tried to Krump towards the exposed elbow, but he quickly drops his blade down to Schranck and does a duplieren. I am fast enough to withdraw before he can hit, but I'm still trying to figure out how to counter the duplieren.

BTW, your advice given is much appreciated. I thank you in advance as you continue to help me with a rather difficult buffalo opponent with the twohander as you did when I needed help with the hand-and-a-half.

Justin

[Jake_Norwood]

Hi Justin.

Isn't the wechselhau just changing from one side to another by rotating either an ober or unter hau? Like in Talhoffer's 1467 manual(I think it's the second template in his longsword section, not sure, though).

Could be. My belief about the wechselhau is that, like many strikes, there's a "definitive" version and a "applicable principle" that allows the strike to be many things. Here's what I think the "definitive" Wechselhau is, based on my interpretation of Meyer's interpretation of what is certainly an old move.

Start in Wechsel on the left (like Talhoffer 1467). Strike with the short edge in a rising strike to his right ear (much like some interpretations of Fiore's Sottani from the left, or as if you were cutting into vom Tag on the right shoulder from left wechsel). This is a weak cut.

As he reacts to it (which he will, it's a pretty slow cut, especially with something like a zweihander) cross your arms by thrusting your left hand with the pommel under your right forearm. This will throw a wicked long edge strike to his leg (with the zweihander, probably his lower leg).

If that fails, or if you just want to hit him again, uncross the arms with great violence and strike him in his Left ear with your short edge in a zwerch.

Thus you "strike high, strike low, then strike high again," as Meyer says the Wechselhau excells at. The superior range of your weapon should force him to react to your attack instead of immediately counter attacking. Or is he using a zweihander, too?

I believe that the Schiller is an oberhau that starts Vom Dach and ultimately ends up in an Ochs of the opposite side, thus one "squints" down one side of his blade to see his enemy.

Yes, that's the strike, but there's all the stuff between the beginning point and the end that really makes the difference, I've found. Do it like this:

1. Strike a regular old Schedelhau (Scheitelhau, or vertical oberhau).

2. "Look to the tip," Ringeck says. As soon as your sword passes the tip of his sword (if he's in Pflug) or would have passed the tip of his sword (as if he had been in Pflug, even if he's not...meaning you're just about in "long point" or langort) wind your blade by twisting it, uncrossing your arms by scissoring them rather vertically (they will have been slightly crossed in the oberhau/vertical strike) and strike him on his right ear with your short edge.

3. Now you're in an extended sort of Ochs position. If you miss or he binds soft, thrust. If you hit, great. If he binds hard, twitch to the other side with a step to that side.

So, in Meyer's terminology, start in Tag or Zornhut. Strike Oberhau into Longort. Wind by unrcrossing the arms to strike with a Schiller to the ear, ending in an extended Ochs.

"The Schiller is nothing but an oberhau, but you strike with the short edge." Meyer's "oberhau" is generally vertical. See if any of that makes a difference.

my opponent's two-hander is longer to be more compatible with his size and weight

That may be the main issue, here...

When he gets in close, he has no chance, because he knows virtually no defense against my grappling techniques, which is why he insists on throwing a hailstrom of heavy blows my way to keep me back as far as possible before he kills me.

Choke up on your sword, like a spear, close and kill him. You can do that! It'll take some guts, though...

As for his Einhorn, I have tried to Krump towards the exposed elbow, but he quickly drops his blade down to Schranck and does a duplieren. I am fast enough to withdraw before he can hit, but I'm still trying to figure out how to counter the duplieren.

Are you striking to the side of his weapon, or the other side? Big difference. Let me know.

Jake

[JeffGentry]

Hewy Guy's

I'm going to add 2cent's to what Jake said about schiller.

Yes, that's the strike, but there's all the stuff between the beginning point and the end that really makes the difference, I've found. Do it like this:

1. Strike a regular old Schedelhau (Scheitelhau, or vertical oberhau).

2. "Look to the tip," Ringeck says. As soon as your sword passes the tip of his sword (if he's in Pflug) or would have passed the tip of his sword (as if he had been in Pflug, even if he's not...meaning you're just about in "long point" or langort) wind your blade by twisting it, uncrossing your arms by scissoring them rather vertically (they will have been slightly crossed in the oberhau/vertical strike) and strike him on his right ear with your short edge.

3. Now you're in an extended sort of Ochs position. If you miss or he binds soft, thrust. If you hit, great. If he binds hard, twitch to the other side with a step to that side.

So, in Meyer's terminology, start in Tag or Zornhut. Strike Oberhau into Longort. Wind by unrcrossing the arms to strike with a Schiller to the ear, ending in an extended Ochs.

"The Schiller is nothing but an oberhau, but you strike with the short edge." Meyer's "oberhau" is generally vertical. See if any of that makes a difference.

I will add

1. be sure and make a good traverse to the side as you wind in and close the distance, closing is important here, it will reposition you to strike/thrust if you don't hit.

2. It leave's your opponent in a bad position because you are now to close for his flurry of blow's and to far away to grapple in other word's it bring's him to your range and don't let him out without doing damage.


Just my 2cent's.



Jeff

[Justin Blackford]

Hello, Jake.

Here's the info on today's exercise. Just got done an hour or so ago.

As for the wechsel into a zwerch technique which you so clearly explained, it took some practicing alone with my zweihander at home this afternoon before I had the confidence to try it with my sparring partner, but it definently works like a charm. I'm now able to start a constant assault on him with a series of changing strikes until he finally runs low on energy as I gain momentum and is overcome by a sudden and powerful zwerchau! Payback's a bitch, ain't it! Now, he doesn't try his little blitzkrieg tactic anymore.

As for your Schiller, I took both your and Jeff's advice on this one and it is definently faster to go more vertical than diagonal like I was doing before. It is not an easy move to get down easily, but it definently works against the buffalo's zornhau. I'm starting to get good at judging the ranges, since he wields a slightly longer weapon and is stronger, thus able to maneuver it faster. Coming in at a closer range in an extended Ochs actually left my point too far past his ear for a thrust to the face, so I performed a schnitte with the short edge to his jugular.

The final problem is still the Einhorn. I beat his first Einhorn today because he did it totally incorrectly. He actually crouched down with his front leg(I'm assuming to outreach me with a low thrust) while holding the sword vertically in line with his head, so I just ran like hell towards him and struck his point using the flat part of the strong of my blade, which beat his blade back and it struck him with the short edge of his own sword!
The next time, he did it right. I tried to Krump to his exposed side, but he quickly stepped forward, dropped into Schranck and then came up with an unterhau. I pulled away fast enough not to get hit, but I still can't react fast enough with my blade to versetzen his strike from this position. Any thoughts?

Justin

[JeffGentry]

hey Justin

Coming in at a closer range in an extended Ochs actually left my point too far past his ear for a thrust to the face, so I performed a schnitte with the short edge to his jugular.

Well nothing wrong with, if you pull into pflug you could go with a low thrust also, the important thig is it left you in a position to keep your attack going and in a "safety zone" inside his point were his sword/hand's are slower, and you can work.


You may try a little "trick" I use and it has worked on more than one opponent.

if he assume's right vom tag, you go to left och's and just void left and strike his head, this work's realy well when people don't think about the 4 opening's and how to opeen and close them, it also work's on the other side too, r. och's, against left vom dach.

I have been trying to fence more to the four opening's and learning what and how they open and close with certain strike's.

I advise you to maybe study this aspect (the 4 opening's) intensely it does help.

Jeff

[Jake_Norwood]

Hi Justin. Try Krumping to the elbow on his covered side, not his exposed side. This is how it is shown in Goliath (I think).

Strike krump from the right against his left ochs, and vice-versa.

Jake

[Justin Blackford]

Hi Jake.

Krumping to his einhorn on his covered side might just work. Since he steps forward and to the side when he drops in Schranckhut, a krumphau to his covered side just might outreach the einhorn to where he'll be too close to perform a duplieren and I'll still be able to hit him and/or deliver a mid-range thrust.
I'll try to put this one into practice when I see him later.

Justin

[Justin Blackford]

Hi Jeff.

Yes, I have tried your trick with the Ochs against Vom Dach by voiding and thrusting. It also seems to work against an opponent holding a Schranckhut that is too high.
Unfortunately, my opponent does know how to open and close the four openings, but luckily, so do I. The only other time I am able to find an opening when he does his blitzkrieg tactic is when he gains so much momentum that he finally moves his body before his sword and gets nailed with a thrust. However, this part of the buffalo tactic he's tried has been....corrected. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

Justin

[Justin Blackford]

Hi Jake.

I performed your suggested move three times during my bouts with my esteemed colleague. The first two times it worked, although the third time he got wise to it and closed in to wrestle. But now he's trying to come up with a whole new routine of moves. I think that's his problem, the routine. He seems to develop patterns of specific moves and tendencies toward favoured strikes from certain positions. It takes a while of training, but I pick up on these things.
I'm usually pretty good with longsword fighting against him, but the two-hander was clearly his territory for a while there. That was merely because of his greater size and strength. Maybe next time we'll try longsword against true two hander and see if it makes anything easier on me. The lighter and faster longsword in my hands could use the aforementioned moves much more efficiently against him, even if I have to rush him to close the distance before he uses his longer weapon against me.
That's all for now.

Thanks Jake! Your patience and advice was much appreciated in my difficult time against the buffalo opponents I have faced during my freeplay sessions.

Justin

[Jake_Norwood]

That is good, young grasshopper. But you cannot go into the world until you take this grain of rice from my hand...

Jake

[Justin Blackford]

<img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> Very funny!

Though, to be fair, I never actually saw "Kung Fu", at least on a regular basis. It's a shame they never gave that part to Bruce Lee, since he was the real martial artist.
Funny how it seems to work that way in almost all theatrical martial arts, they never give it to a genuine martial artist. Just think of how good the swordsmanship in "Conan" could have turned out if someone like John Waller or Mike Loades was directing it instead of a pseudo-fencer.
I realize that I'm steering off-topic, so I'll shut up now.
Sorry, just sayin'...... <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Justin

[Justin Blackford]

Actually, going back on the topic of true swordsmanship:

I might have a sword show opportunity again in my hometown sometime in September or October. My grandmother is friends with a lot of prominent people in town and runs a lot of clubs, so she is trying to hook me up with some local events(i.e. German-American Club's Oktoberfest, local festivals, etc.).
I am definently going to demonstrate a lot of the moves we have discussed here if my friends and I get the opportunity for this show. We'll probably do a lot of spear-work, rapier, smallsword, longsword, zweihander, sword-and-shield, and maybe some cross-training with my friends praticing Eastern Martial Arts. I'll keep my fingers crossed!

Justin