Meyer: Schlaudern and Rasmusson's Translation

[Travis Beamon]

First, to introduce myself, I am new to the ARMA by 6 months, and have been studying with the ARMA DFW group since February.

Today at practice whilst going over some of the Rasmusson translation of Meyer's Fechtbuch found at http://www.schielhau.org/main.html we came upon the Schlaudern or Slinging technique. I am quoting it for easier reference to my inquery:

' Slinging

Is nothing other than how you let a strike fly in a Sling to your opponent's head, for this put yourself in the Fool's guard, and pull your sword back though close to your right, step with your right foot to your opponent while pulling your sword back to you, and sling your strike to his head. This Slinging Strike shall fly out even like a stone is thrown from a sling, whatever more you need note on Slinging you will find described in sections after here. '

On the fly we interpreted this technique as being executed thusly:

Starting from Alber one passes or steps diagonally forward with the right foot whilst bringing the sword up into a right Ochs position. From there one then completes the technique by rotating with the trailing foot (left foot) thereby completing the triangle step whilst striking horizontally out with either a one handed das Gayzlen that lands high on the opponent or a two handed Zornhau/Mittelhau.

Any comments, suggestions, or other translations to crossreference would be of great help.

Thanks,
-Travis Beamon

[JeffGentry]

Hey Travis

I have seen this in the Meyer book haven't real studied it , I do know that the old sling was a projectile weapon that used centrifugal force, they would load a stone in a leather pouch on the end of two string's and either rotate it at there side or over there head and then release one string to launch the stone so with that in mind i would say to just step and bring it up aroud your head to hit them from you right.

AFAIK Meyer is the only one that describe's doing this high most do it to the leg's.

I could be wrong like i said i have only realy read it haven't done much trial on it.


Jeff

[Mike Cartier]

well i haven't really played with this technique yet, but i would tentativtly agree with your initial interpretation of it.

[Doug Marnick]

For what it's worth, when I first read this description, my initial thought was that the Alber would swing back almost into Tail.
From there, the sword can be launched out with the step in a sidearm throwing motion like one would imagine a sling being used.
However, according to www.slinging.org, a classic sling can be used overhand, sidearm, or underhand. This makes me wonder if the strike becomes a one handed scheitelhau from Tail.
Another question is if the extension of range is done through das gayzlen type of holding only at the pommel with the bottom hand (which seems implausible) or possibly letting the pommel slide up to the top hand (ending in an awkward reaching position).
Either way, if my novice interpretation is correct, it seems to be a wild strike in a large arc that would be easily avoided, parried, or countered by someone with more experience than me. And even if I'm way off, I offer this post in an academic effort to explore all possibilities.

FYI
"Slinging
Miscellaneous Handwork: A flinging cut delivered from a distance.
schlaudern: Egenolph 6r; Meyer 19r, 60r, 60v [MnG schleudern]"
http://www.higginssword.org/guild/study/glossary/#slinging
"Schlaudern
'Slinging' An overhand slinging blow akin to Das Gayszlen".
http://www.thearma.org/terms2.htm

[Jake_Norwood]

Hi Doug.

What you're describing is very much the way I've always done it, and it with great effect. If you look at some of the video from my prize playing in '03, I won perhaps a third of my matches by slinging either above (schlaudern) or below (das gayslen).

Jake

[Ray Brunk]

I am in full agreement with Doug & Jake. I have been working this technique on my tire pell. With a passing leap step it is unbelievable the amount of distance which can be covered. In sparring it surprises the opponent as they seem convinced you are too far away for a strike. Definitely need to pull back into tail for proper momentum. Pulling into Ochs shortens the "sling" trajectory hindering the momentum and distance one can close.
I totally bashed John O. last Sunday right in the center of the skull. After shaking his head a bit he said " I woulda swore you were going to fall short"
Uberlangen at it's finest.

[Doug Marnick]

Jake or Ray--
Thx for the feedback. Can you (or anyone) clarify some things for me? For both schlaudern and das gayslen, which hand stays on the grip? In the video below, I see JC keeping his left hand in place for the overhead strike. Also, if the das gayslen is slinging below, is the caption of the video inaccurate? Click on "One-handed chop"
I'm not trying to nitpick. Rather, I want to be sure I understand the difference between the two types of slinging cuts and to be sure the terms schlaudern and das gayslen are not exactly interchangeable.

[Jake_Norwood]

I always use my left hand, but the right is possible by slipping your grip to the pommel (I once lost a shinai like that in a friendly bout with a kendoka. No Pommel! Whoosh!)

Jake

[Ray Brunk]

Doug,
I like to use this technique with either hand depending on purpose & angle of attack.It depends on which guard side I am in to begin the technique.As a general rule for myself...I extend with the same side hand as I am making my passing step. I feel this allows me to reach further and strike with more force. When striking and stepping on the same side I can attack with more of an angle as I'm not trying to cut across my own body.

[Derek Bown]

I haven't been studying long enough to contribute to the conversation. And I don't mean to seem petty or nitpicking, and I don't want anyone to be offended, but I just thought you may be interested that the words shlaudern and gayslen are actually spelled "shläudern" and "geiseln". (I used to live in Germany, and since I haven't studied in Arma long enough to say anything worthwhile about sword technique, I thought I might as well contribute towards proper grammar and spelling. Not that ya have to pay any attention to me, but if you care, that's that's how you spell those words.)

[Jaron Bernstein]

Well, I did get off a few successful sling cuts in sparring last week. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Jake_Norwood]

Hi Derek.

You're right, and you're not. You're thinking modern German, or even any kind of German with regulated spelling. "Fechtbuch" German is another animal largely, and the spellings used here are right out of the Fechtbucher.

Here's a favorite example: "Zwerch." I've seen it spelled as

zwerch
twerch
czwerch
twirch
zwirch

...just to name a few off the top of my head. Same goes for all of the guard names.

Alber, Olber
Tag, vom Tag, Dach, vom Dach
Eisenport, Eysenpfort

...or other cuts...

Scheitelhau, Schedelhauw
Zornhau, Zornhauw, Czornhau
Scheilhau, Scheilhauw, Schillhauw, Schillerhau

...or principles...

Wag, Waag, Waage

...or footwork...

Drit, Trit, Tritt

...or Master's Names, even...

Liechtenauer, Liechtenawer

...or names of people on this forum...

Stacy Clifford, Stacey Clifford
Stew Feil, Stu Feil (he even varies!)
Jake Norwood, Jake Supreme Master of the Universe <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

etc.

Jake

[Derek Bown]

Maybe I'll be able to form a better opinion once I see some of the manuscripts for myself. I haven't actually seen much of the old spelling for myself. I'll have to ask my dad, he had a friend in germany teach him how to read the old german writing, and not the printed gothic either, but the real handwritten stuff all the sword masters used.

[M Wallgren]

ROTFL... You´re in a good mood <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Matt Bryant]

Actually if you look at the texts you will see VERY many different spellings. As a speaker of the modern german tounge I find myself unable to read and fully comprehend the more archaic german. For instance I have seen "hau" spelled: hau, hauw, haw, and so on.