Dagger Stabs

[Mike Cartier]

Actually there is a forwsrd grip depicted, i just missed it.
In the minority as you say Jake.

[Jay Vail]

Meyer describes at least one method for attacking with the forward grip (which interestingly involves simply feinting high and striking low after drawing out a cover, or vice versa) and a number of methods for defending against a forward grip attack, each of them very sophisticated and effective, as Fiore’s forward grip defenses similarly are effective, simple and sophisticated.

However, as already noted, Meyer, like most of the other masters, concentrates on reverse grip attack and defense. In my opinion, this reflects the historical fact that during this period, most men used the dagger in the reverse grip. Peterson reports that he reviewed vast numbers of historical artworks and could find few instances when daggers are depicted as being used in the forward grip. He concluded from this review that the medieval dagger was predominately used in the reverse grip. This conclusion seems to make sense, based upon the available evidence, and help explain why reverse grip techniques far outnumber forward grip techniques. Because the reverse grip was the most commonly used grip, the old masters devoted most of their energy and ingenuity to devising means to defend against it.

There is nothing wrong with using the dagger in reverse grip. It is a natural way of using the dagger and untrained people instinctively use edged weapons this way. There are numerous modern examples of this.

However, which grip you use depends upon the context of the fight. Most dagger attacks happen quickly: one guy pulls his weapon and stabs the other guy before (or hopefully before) he has a chance to defend himself. Given the method of carry during that time, it seems likely that a reverse grip draw was the most common method of deploying the weapon. The blow would be delivered immediately upon the draw, not with any long preliminary zufechten. In this context, the reverse grip makes perfect sense, especially if your opponent is unarmed. When he is unarmed, it makes little difference which grip you use.

Only when you step into the realm of the duel does the reverse grip become a potential liability, which I think Silver’s comments were intended to address.

For those of you who are interested, here is a representative example of a rarity, a knife fight involving two armed men from a Sepember 1325 entry in the London Coroner's rolls. It starts out with a sudden attack by a man using the reverse grip (from the location of the victim’s wounds). The victim manages to defend himself from this sudden attack, however, deploy his own weapon and kill his attacker with a forward grip strike (again deduced from the location of the death wound):

The jurors say that on the preceding Sunday, after the hour of Vespers, the said Nicholas and a certain John “Paling” of Flanders were quarrelling on the aforesaid wharf, when the said Nicholas drew his knife called “anelaz” and therewith wounded the said John four times on the throat and neck and pursued him with intent to kill him as far as the water of the Thames; that at length the said John drew his knife called “trenchour,” and therewith struck the said Nicholas under the left breast to the heart so that he immediately died.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Fella's

The jurors say that on the preceding Sunday, after the hour of Vespers, the said Nicholas and a certain John “Paling” of Flanders were quarrelling on the aforesaid wharf, when the said Nicholas drew his knife called “anelaz” and therewith wounded the said John four times on the throat and neck and pursued him with intent to kill him as far as the water of the Thames; that at length the said John drew his knife called “trenchour,” and therewith struck the said Nicholas under the left breast to the heart so that he immediately died.

I just want everyone to notice it say's good ol' John was "pursued" it seem's to me that he was getting away and then drew his own knife when he was unable to get away, which indicate's he probably caught the assailant by surprise against his knife attack, I think speed, surprise and aggression are a big part of the any fight.

Jeff

[david welch]

We played with some dagger drill stuff today. I hope you can get to the video.

http://us.f1f.yahoofs.com/bc/6632a8db_m4195a8a5/bc/files/ARMA/Dagger073105.wmv?bfDea7CBGHS36YNf

Does anybody know of a place that can host some more of our group videos?

[ChrisThies]

In my opinion, this reflects the historical fact that during this period, most men used the dagger in the reverse grip. Peterson reports that he reviewed vast numbers of historical artworks and could find few instances when daggers are depicted as being used in the forward grip. He concluded from this review that the medieval dagger was predominately used in the reverse grip. This conclusion seems to make sense, based upon the available evidence, and help explain why reverse grip techniques far outnumber forward grip techniques. Because the reverse grip was the most commonly used grip, the old masters devoted most of their energy and ingenuity to devising means to defend against it.

Hello Jay,
Are you referring to the author Harold Peterson ["Daggers and Fighting Knives of the Western World"]?

I'm curious about the renaissance introduction of knuckle guard rings and the more profuse quillons (i.e. wider, U-shaped, S-shaped, etc.) onto parrying daggers. I've never handled any daggers with such more elaborate cross-guards. Would the knuckle guard ring (&/or more profuse quillons) make for more awkward 'reverse grip' [ice pick] usage, thus limiting the applications of such types of daggers? I'm wondering if the knuckle guard ring were facing one's wrist whilst utilizing a reverse grip, perhaps it would then interfere with some of locks/trappings techniques. Have you (or anyone else) by any chance had the opportunity to practice reverse grip dagger techniqes with any such hilt arrangements on a 'renaissance' type parrying dagger?
Thanks for your time.

[Jaron Bernstein]

The daggers in Capo Ferro (used with a rapier) are not done with the icepick grip. Whereas earlier (meyer for instance) that grip does seem to be prevalent. As to why? I don't know.

[Stacy Clifford]

I think the more eleborate hilts on parrying daggers would make the icepick grip less practical, but an icepick grip isn't the best for parrying a rapier thrust anyway. I think most of the manuals showing an icepick grip are using a rondel dagger, which is made for punching through armor and perfect for the Norman Bates style of attack.

[Bart Walczak]

Hi guys,

Great discussion. It covers most of my own observations about the dagger fighting. I especially agree about the non-duelling attitude, aggresiveness and sparring in non-duelling situations.

I would advise:

1. Make a role-playing tactical game of being surprised by an attacker. It's difficult, but you can do it by having people attack you not in the sparring time, but other times.

2. DO NOT EVER stop the sparring after the first hit! Go for the total control and 4-5 consecutive stabs during fight. If you can manage that, you certainly won. Otherwise consider it a tie. I know that if you attack from the ambush, you don't need 4-5 stabs, but I believe stopping after the first hit in sparring gives you bad habits <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

3. There are techniques for grasping and trapping the arm with the forehand grip in the Lignitzer's and Hundsfeld's dagger - ie. Peter von Danzig, Goliath.

4. Daggers in Codex Wallerstein might as well be kidney daggers, not rondels, but it doesn't make much of a difference.

Everything else has been said before. Good work!

[david welch]

Changed dagger link to one that works.

Dagger Drills

[Casper Bradak]

"The daggers in Capo Ferro (used with a rapier) are not done with the icepick grip. Whereas earlier (meyer for instance) that grip does seem to be prevalent. As to why? I don't know."

Underhand gripped daggers are not very useful in foyning fence, but very useful with military weapons or context, where closing, armours, and multiple opponents may be more likely.
In my experience, upturned quillons and compound hilts do not effect an underhand grip, but if the quillons are upturned very far, it may effect some few underhand techniques, but they were obviously designed with a certain use in mind.

[ChrisThies]

New dagger question:
Has anyone yet tried, with padded daggers and full intent, the specific Fiore and Vadi counter-thrust technique (I've only seen it exhibited by them) of grabbing the dagger blade with the offhand closer to the hilt (as opposed to grabbing it closer to the tip as one would do to execute the blocking technique called 'upper or lower shield' by Talhoffer, or 'master cover' by Fiore, depicted in Codex, etc.) and with this grip delivering a direct counter-thrust into the weapon hand of the thrusting opponent? I was wondering how much harm to one's sacrificial forearm is incurred while executing this technique.

I'm referring to Fiore's 'Flos Duellatorum' depiction (www.varmouries.com/wildrose/fiore/section2.html) that is above the caption, "Being you and I armed You see that I have thrust the knife in your hand". Which is echoed in Vadi's folio 30 recto with the caption "I thrust this way quickly into your hand Quickly your dagger will fall". Both counter-thrusts are against a reverse gripped, single handed thrust from above, with the opponent's blade above the forearm of the half-daggering, counter-thruster. Vadi's folio 31 verso depicts the same counter-thrust - albeit less vertical and more towards horizontal - against a single handed, forward gripped thrust from middle to high, with the opponent's blade beneath the forearm of the half-daggering, counter-thruster.

The next time I have my hands on Aaron's padded daggers I'll give this technique a try. But meanwhile I'm wondering why one might choose to do this, as opposed to say an 'upper shield' block combined with a follow up attack. I'm thinking that perhaps if your opponent is much stronger than you, thus diminishing your outlook for a successful follow up to a block, then perhaps this counter-thrust technique (with its inherent risk of injury to your forearm) may be the better choice. Hmmm.