Maybe there is hope, yet.....

[Justin Blackford]

For those of us who train independently or with various organizations and study groups practicing the Medieval and Renaissance Western Martial Arts, we often times have people ask what we are doing when we are training. Some people just laugh and call it a waste of time, or say that WMA "isn't a real martial art"(which seems to imply that only the EMA are).
But, yesterday, somebody said something I won't forget.
While I was on my lunch break at work, I was reading my copy of Christian Henry Tobler's "Fighting with the German Longsword" and a co-worker sitting next to me asked what I was reading. I showed her the book and said that I was studying Medieval swordsmanship.
And she, having no knowledge of any of the organizations such as the ARMA, AEMMA, Freifechter, EHCG, etc., and also having almost no knowledge of Western swordsmanship itself actually asked me, "Oh, are you a martial artist?"
I was stunned! Somebody actually associated historical fencing with martial arts! I quickly replied that I was. I am still stunned that she didn't give the cliche' "Why bother?" or "Who would be into that?" or "That's a bizarre hobby".
Though, I should point out that when people ask me "Why?" I always say, "Why not?".
So, maybe time shall reveal that WMA will become as respected and well-known as our Eastern counterparts.
I am just glad that I didn't get the standard veiled insult or other form of derogatory comment about what I practice.

Justin

[Alfred Wong]

It really depends on personality - still there are people think that martial art is a waste of time, but there are people that respect it as a serious science. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

There are still a lot of people treat martial art as "bad thing". When we talk of learning musical instruments or other arts, people would often appraise, but some people just doesn't treat martial art as an art ...

[Joachim Nilsson]

Glad to hear to you got an appreciative comment from an "outsider". I usually get stuff like: "Duuuh, why not just get a gun?" or "So you like to play Ivanhoe, right?"

But, every once in a while, you do get a positive comment stripped from the usual BS. I don't know.... Deep down I really want to enlighten people, but if they insist on throwing out stupid remarks even after I have told them what it's all about (legitimate, serious martial art etc), I just don't care. I've grown tired of trying to inform people who refuse to listen. But I guess that's something each and everyone on this forum have experienced one time or another.

[Rod-Thornton]

I'm glad to hear that you were pleasantly surprised by the (obviously insightful) comments of a co-worker -sign 'er up! I myself am a little surprised however, at the irony of a common theme I've seen woven into so many posts here....that being it seems the students of WMA wrestle with establishing the legitimacy of the pursuit en masse'. Although very new to the whole discipline (hey, the check hasn't even cleared yet!), and only just beginning to be reading through the materials and developing the background knowledge necessary to marry study with practical physical exploration, I've actually not had >anyone< I've spoke to about it speak derisively or without genuine fascination -several of whom practice or practiced EMA ferverently. In fact, people I've talked to about the pursuit say it "makes sense" and a few have expressed interests of doing the same. To those, I point out the website as a good place to educate themselves.

My discussions however, when asked about the "why bother" factor of WMA/learning true application of rapier/longsword are straightforwardly simple. I cite that I want exercise, which in and of itself tends to become boring. That I'd like to couple exercise with something "useful" (by which I mean, "a new skill not previously held"). That at 40+ yrs, I do not want to learn Tai kwan Do again, or Karate, or play "old-man's league" soccer/softball/football, or other "typical" YMCA type of sponsored events (all of which I love, though). So, with an interest for history, for some sort of martial skill being a good skill to have, learning WMA is a great thing to delve into that will not stale with the years.

Too, the credibility of the image (with emphasis on accuracy, reality, practical re-creation of historical methods), and simply, the credentials of the leadership within this organization, I struggle to understand how anyone, whose queries are genuine enough to take a few moments to educate themselves, can doubt the legitimacy of WMA being a valid martial arts pursuit. -To those whose queries are superficial and sneering to the point where the mind is closed and they don't really want an answer to their question...I simply close ranks and move on!

-My point- I think that while you might be surprised at the "newfound awareness" of a co-worker, I'd bet it becomes more of a "non-issue" in the years to come.

[Kevin Peterson]

I like to use the fact that I am retracing my own history and ancestry. I tell them that practically everyone has an ancestor that would been training and using the very same skills that we, and by we I mean ARMA, are practicing. That usually generates some interest, and most find it interesting at least even if it is not their thing. Of course there are always those fun people that make RMA training interesting. A few weeks ago our group was holding practice in a local park, when a man, who was obviously under the influence of a few beverages, staggered over and sat down. We were doing some half speed waster sparring and he watching somewhat intently. After a few minutes he starts to yell that we should get started with the real fighting, apparently we were not moving fast enough to entertain him. After watching for a few more minutes he starts asking us to let him try it, so he could show us how it was supposed to look I guess. After explaining to him that he would need to be a member, sign our waiver, have knowledge of our basic training, etc. The alcohol in him stated that he would join on the spot, sign any waiver we had, and he would even allow us to keep our wasters and all he would need was one of our training daggers, which he affectionately referred to as "this thing". So realizing that there was no rationalizing with him, I felt that I should try anyway, he started to bargain with us. He would offer various scenarios in the hope that we would let him wield a waster. His final offer before losing interest in our practice was that we could keep our wasters and all he would he need to defeat was his trusty cigarette lighter which we happened to have with him so we would not even have to wait. Apparently he was concerned about us getting bored in his absence. What a riot. Fortunately, I have had more people at least offer respect for what we do than not, even if they are not interested.

Kevin Peterson
ARMA Appleton

[Gene Tausk]

Kevin:

First, ROTFLOL as to your encounter with the inebriated "expert." It's too bad you did not take him up on his offer of cigarrette lighter-fu. I would have paid good money to watch that one! <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Second, unfortunately your encounter was not unique. Last year ARMA Houston did a series of demos at the Texas Rennaissance Fair (I have heard that this fair is the largest in the country and it certainly is popular, but I don't know if this statement is true or not) and of course we were demonstrating sparring with wasters, contact weapons, steel blunts and also disarms, etc. The standard ARMA stuff. After one bout I had, I believe with Eric W., Stacy was going at it with someone with his usual zeal. I was standing next to a group of drunks who were boasting to each other that we were "wimps" who didn't know what we were doing. I confronted them and one of them responded, "Dude, I do sport fencing. I know what real fencing is all about. This is (expletive). I can take you on any time."

Never bout with a drunk, if for no other reasons than legal reasons. I left him to brag to his fellow alkies.

It's amazing how brave some people are purely by watching.

Now - if only he had a ciggarette lighter - I really would have been worried. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />


--------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
SFS
Study Group Leader - ARMA Houston Southside

[Jaron Bernstein]

We train in a local park and have the unfortunate tendency to get yahoos who yell bad star wars comments from passing cars <img src="/forum/images/icons/mad.gif" alt="" /> Sometimes I wish they would stop the car and come over to play......

[Jonathan Scott]

I've gained a slight reputation as "samurai Jon" (at least by my fellow dormies) when practicing on a campus lawn/park thingie (Landis Green) with my bokken (And soon to be waster as soon as I can get one). I don't really mind all the weird looks (and occasional comments; and I even get the rare "I like what you're doing, keep it up") I keep in mind that I'm unique (i.e. weird <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" /> ) and that if someone has a problem with it, I'll go somewhere else and practice (or join the people playing ultimate frisbee as they want the whole green). At least I've never been told not to do that on the green by the cops or anything, and I always keep a good 20 ft. away from the sidewalks so I don't hit anybody.
But yeah jeering calls are no fun. But putting up with them makes you a more patient person, not to mention you are training so zoning out possible distractions is a good idea.
(doubtless ya'll know this etc just want to attempt to encourage you if possible <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

[JeanryChandler]

Amusing posts guys. Here in the 'safety last' deep south we have actually had a different approach. Not too much with drunks, but we have had strangers walk up and try fencing, many times.

We used to do our training in the parking lot of a clothing store called Ebony Square, on Magazine St., in New Orleans. it was also about a block and a half away from a big public basketball court. Guys used to walk by and routinely asked us what the hell we were doing. Given our location in the neighborhood, where I and a couple of other folks in our group also lived, we had to have a policy of good community relations.

When these guys showed serious interest, I gave them a little speach about safety (wearing a helmet and gloves), "rules" (no punching, no striking with the pommels which were unpadded back then, fight stops after one good hit, etc.) and let them try it out. it was good practice for us actually because these guys were almost always in great physical condition and were often experienced streetfighters with excellent timing and speed.

The big advantage we had was that they had no sense of reach, and they really had no concept of defense, and tended to telegraph a lot and usually strike very preictably from a 'wrath guard'. These guys were AMAZED by (and their watching friends always very loudly appreciative of ) an effective displacement, especially a displacement and counter. This was where that good old hangen counter came in really handy, and a very important lesson about proper form was taught in an almost indellable way. Nearly every time people tried sparring with us they came out of it respectful and interested, a couple of guys actually started showing up to our practices intermittently.

We still also constantly get EMA guys approaching us in social situations after having heard about our activities, often with a very crticial attitude. The biggest thing about this is that, even the serious people who I think actually do know something, they tell all these stories about Senseis who can fight 8 (armed) people simultaneously, punches that knock people across streets and etc. EMA is so mystical and mysterious, and i guess my approach to WMA is completely about demystification. I have had to fight with people with every imaginable level of training and experience over the years, my attitude toward very elitist talk is, ok lets see what you got. So far, I have seen some good fighters, but nothing like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Of course, now that I own a house and a handful of other property, maybe I ought to get one of those waivers and make them sign it first next time.

Jeanry

[s_taillebois]

Well, the inebriates, always a concern. And a liability issue.
As for the acceptance of WMA, a matter of time, as there seems to be growing interest in that arena. More will arise when people realize there is some ethics involved in it all.
One of the problems some in the EMA have had to deal with, is the tendency for some to wrap questionable conduct into a mysticism which has been implied not to be subject to change. Without necessarily admitting that this mysticism, was linked to a given period and culture. At this point, WMA is viewed, by many, as either a eccentric hobby, or an interesting physical exercise. Although the original practioners of our art, did have a element of religious mysticism to their art...we're a long time away from the society they lived. And the expectation is that it's not necessary to directly recycle the morality/mysticism of the period (for example the late med/Renn had a whole conceptual framework linked to the cruciform hilts of the time) And so, current WMA can have the discipline, and the better basic ethics, without having to carry the complete context of the reformation/counterreformation, divine right monarchies, 100 years war &amp; etc.
In short, we can have the discipline, and some of the ethics, without the implication of being completely linked to the conditionals under which these were originally used. As such, many people may become more interested in WMA/ARMA type disciplines because its a means of partaking a heritage, without assuming the need to be bound to its original context.
A bit wordy...but methinks the overall situation is what's going to drive a sizeable resurgance in traditional western fencing.

[JeanryChandler]

Interesting post Mr Tallebois.

I think there is a fundamental difference between the current approaches here in the West, to EMA and WMA, very generally speaking. Perhaps ironically, I and most of my friends, do take a spiritual interest in WMA, on the level of culture and a kind of 'warrior' mindset, which I find very important personally.

The major difference I see, and again I think this may be to a large extent about the way things are done here in the US, is that in many EMA schools there is this assumed strict hierarchy, and this mysticisim, which is associated with even a certain amount of hazing like you might see in a College Fraternity, all kinds of humiliation, put-downs, mental games and etc., and pardon my french, but a lot of B.S.

While I understand this can be an effective way to teach some important lessons, I personally dont relate to it. I prefer a more open culture of friends joining together for martial arts training with a feeling brotherhood, where all can contribute if not equally, with some parity.

Of course some people are more skilled and / or experienced than others, but with a mutually respectful atmosphere, with plenty of opportunity to readily put skill levels to the test by sparring, I find that this makes itself quickly apparent. There is no reason to lord over someone because you have more experience in martial arts, or even if you are a better fighter. It doesn't necessarily make you a better human being.

I have personally found that everyone in the little informal group I train with can make valuable contributions to our training. Of course, most of these guys are people I've known for 15 years or more, who have had my back in numerous dangerous real life situations. Some are trained in EMA as well, and are very good fighters, but you won't ever see them acting like bullies, especially toward friends and family or what you might call kin.

But this to me is what a true warrior is, and if you will forgive a leap of faith, I feel like I see echoes of this same mentality in some of my own ancient ancestors, not so much with the kinghts and lords obviously, but with more tribal people such as the early Vikings and the La Tene era Celts, even to some extent the fighting brotherhoods of Renaissance Europe such as the Irish - Norse Gallowglass, the Swiss Rieslauffer and the German Landsknechts, to name a few.

Pardon my rant, this is something I take seriously.

Jeanry

[Jonathan Scott]

that's good you're serious, dude <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
I got no problem with long posts (is guilty of that himself)
man I want some sparring partners... <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" />
oh well soon enough when I get back to school. <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />

[s_taillebois]

M. Chandler, Interesting ideas...
What I was trying to convey, with some obvious difficulty, is that in the Renn. of WMA, there is a certain advantage to having some of those traditions 'broken'. Insofar as it allows us to chose the moral aspects which best fit our society.
For example, in the loyalty required of European knights, it did tend to be within or above their own status. (That's why in sieges it wasn't uncommon to turn out the townspeople to the no mans land between the besieging army and the castles). So protecting the weak, often was socially conditional (or even an appalling omission by modern standards). The 'break' in continuety allows those in WMA, to pick and chose between the better aspects and angels of our forebearers. Essentially we have the option of following the better ideals of those who followed Joan d'Arc, or stood at Agincourt...without having to swallow the entirety of the philosophies which led them to massacre (or deny succor) to non-combatents.
Those in EMA can also do this, but often the heavy weight of linear tradition will tend to enforce a conservatism. And the heirachy (when overemphasized) tends to ensure that old attitudes remain, although they might not be useable in a modern contexts.
Perhaps that's why there seems to be some increasing interest in using fencing/WMA as a moral/physical strength builder for kids...people can use a heritage without necessarily having to adopt it's lesser qualities because its 'traditional'.
Sometimes reinventing or reinterpeting a tradition is of more value than simply preserving it...

[JeanryChandler]

What I was trying to convey, with some obvious difficulty, is that in the Renn. of WMA, there is a certain advantage to having some of those traditions 'broken'. Insofar as it allows us to chose the moral aspects which best fit our society.
(snip)
Sometimes reinventing or reinterpeting a tradition is of more value than simply preserving it...

Actually, I quite agree with you. As someone descendend from Europeans I do relate to the martial heritage of my culture. But I have obviously choosen to focus on a certain aspect of it, i.e. the cultural traits of certain tribal societies and some mercenary groups, which is certainly at best a subdominant characteristic of historical European culture, (one not heavily emphasized in most available histories either)

So yeah, I agree with you, with the caveat that I think history is worth preserving and understanding, not every aspect of that history deserves to be emulated. I remember an hilarious satirical article on The Onion a while back in which some Re-enactors snatched a girl out of a crowd at a Renaissance faire, judged her guilty of being a harlot and burned her at the stake. Clearly, in real life, there is such a thing as going to far!

Sometimes though I actually also think some of the attitude which seems to go along with EMA in the US is a serious distortion and / or exaggeration of the real orginal spiritual dimensions which went along with the martial training. Probably more to do with Kung Fu movies than with actual EMA. Thats why I am very hesitant to criticize EMA taking place in Asia, just what I see here in the West which I know can be somewhat off the deep end.

Jeanry

[s_taillebois]

Likely so, movies although being a loose modern cultural equivalent to a chanson de geste (or toile)...tend not to be the best mirror to judge things.
As for learning about tribal/mercenary European subgroups, and their attendent martial arts...as you note difficult. Even with people like Gattamalata (the mercenaries of the Italian Renn), the arts and attitudes which made them, have tended to been obscured by time loss and etc.
Still, reading Silver, Liechtenaeur and company, one can still pick up moral/ethical attitudes that are somewhat alien to our period. And some universals which still hold valid. And since these were arts which had a spiritual component, very likely there were elements which were specifically left out. Either to ensure those who attained a certain status were worthy, or to compensate for the effects of the printing press. (got a bit harder to keep things strictly hierarchical...when the Venetian printers started putting out affordable editions of everything they could find). Interestingly, the mere survival of some our our fechtbuchs was in part influenced by the high tech media of the period.
On EMA, as you note, mayhaps the movie cliche's haven't helped. Sabaru Sakai seemed very much to be a product of his samurai ethos, and still managed to accomodate that to a 300 mph aircraft.