Some good cross-training w/EMA

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Justin Blackford
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Some good cross-training w/EMA

Postby Justin Blackford » Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:38 pm

I just got back from my friend's house, and we had a good time with some cross-training this evening.
My friend whom I have mentioned before in my previous posts on my cross-training experiences with EMA has just come back from a vacation in Italy, and he's learned some things while there.
He had only had some rudimentary training in kenjutsu in what I am theorizing was a pseudo-fencing school some years back, and when we would often cross-train, he would just try to incorporate moves he saw on TV shows into his fight sequences. I would usually defeat him time after time without even trying hard.
Well, that's all changed. Apparently, while on his vacation, he found a certified Iajutsu instructor and bought a book which accurately represents the historical way of fighting with the katana, and he finally learned how to fight for real!
I noticed right away. When we entered the zufechten and took our guards, I saw that his transition between the various guards was very smooth and quite disciplined. He no longer parried edge-on-edge, and became quite good at attacks that happened in double-times (dui tempo for rapier fencers, I don't know the Japanese term for this concept).
He still played a little too defensive, but I could see that he was learning to adapt to my style of German longsword. I thought that some of his parries were a little wide and exaggerrated, so I decided to try some Sprechfenster techniques against this. Little did I know that this was just a deception so that he could close the distance between me and my longer blade when I struck high and then he performed a type of half-sword draw slice and thrust.
His type of half-sword technique was obviously different from the longsword way of doing it. He used the palm of his hand on the back edge of the katana to help push it along my abdomen and femoral artery when he got in close, and his close-quarter thrusts from his half-sword position were done by pinching his thumb and forefinger on the flats of the blade and pushing from the hilt.
The private lessons he received definently paid off, and I was pleasantly surprised that he learned some factual fighting techniques rather than all that pseudo-samurai/anime hype that he was so interested in just a few months back.
He beat me in the first two bouts, but then I realised that he was finally serious in the art of fighting, and I stopped underestimating him and took myself a little more seriously.
In the following bouts, I saw how intent he was on deceiving me with what seemed to be wide parries, but were in fact two tempo moves(kind of like the duplieren in the Western system). He also learned how to take advantage from the bind by running through with either half-sword techniques or closing in to grapple and/or attempting disarms. Luckily, my signifigantly increased experience in grappling thwarted his disarm attempts and I wrapped him up pretty tight in some good joint locks using my hilt as a lever.
In further bouts, much simpler movements like the hauptstucke techniques from the Zornhau and Krumphau proved most effective. He still has trouble defending against my Unterhaus, but he's learning more with every experience(so am I for that matter).
So, the final tally: WMA Longsword 6 to EMA Katana 5
I have a good feeling that all of my cross-training experiences from here on in are going to be a lot more interesting......

Justin
A man believes what he wants to believe. - Cuchulainn

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Jonathan Scott
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Re: Some good cross-training w/EMA

Postby Jonathan Scott » Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:44 pm

whoah that's really interesting!!!
I'm glad for your friend that he found a good instructor, as well as for you that you get an awesome crosstraining experience.
I'm also looking for something better and more historically accurate than aikiken (as far as katana goes, I just have a few doubts about how well it works, as the original teacher was not an avid swordsmen, but the style does focus on voiding blades and close in grappling, so I think I could learn a lot once I get the hang of the basics), but if I find an iaijutsu or kenjutsu teacher I'll see if they'll teach me.
Also, do you know the name of that book? Cause I want one of those <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />

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Justin Blackford
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Re: Some good cross-training w/EMA

Postby Justin Blackford » Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:23 am

I believe the book was called "Flashing Steel" or something like that. It must be good, because he said that a lot of the moves he covered in his private sessions in Italy were included in the book.
When I first started WMA, I still included some rudimentary katana drills and exercises with a couple of my friends, so that I would be familiar with what a katana fencer might do if we ever met in a cross-training session. I got out of that for a while, thinking that I wasn't going to need it, but now I think I should study up on how the true katana was wielded and start some more cross-training to see exactly what can be done from both perspectives.
I'm even thinking of "challenging" my EMA friend to a duel. Maybe we'll set up a big event due for a few months from now, so that we may both train all the harder and be encouraged to get ever better before we cross blades again. I'll even have it so that the duel is more like a judicial duel reminiscent of both the historical European and Japanese ways of setting it up. I'll have to do a lot of research on that. Maybe this method could best replicate in the modern day what it might have been like for someone to have to train hard before they risked their lives in a judicial duel. Could be fun...

Justin
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Re: Some good cross-training w/EMA

Postby Lance Chan » Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:34 am

From what I've gathered from your posts, your friend was not a bad fighter even before that, or he wouldn't be able to pick up so many thing during just one vacation. He's a quick learner and I'm eager to see the future of your training with him.
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Re: Some good cross-training w/EMA

Postby JeanryChandler » Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:04 pm

I was gonna say, the best EMA fighter I ever saw fight vs WMA was the Gumdo (sp?) champion fighter that Lance fought a few bouts with one time. He was basically doing kendo, and relied heavily on downward strikes from something like a Vom tag guard, but he was surprisingly effective.

All the EMA guys I have fought so far either weren't all that well trained, or were trained in things like Escrima which don't do well against long weapons like swords. We are supposed to have a very experienced Kung Fu guy visiting this weekend who is trained with the staff, we'll see how it goes.

I'm curious about this guy, was he using a standard length Katana, say around 39"? Were you using padded weapons or wasters? If you were usuing a longsword of the standard length around 48" or so I'm a bit surprised you haven't been able to take more advantage of your reach advantage. Also, false edge cuts...

All in all, very interesting account. I would love to see some video of your next bout if you could possibly arrange it.

JR
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Justin Blackford
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Re: Some good cross-training w/EMA

Postby Justin Blackford » Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:02 pm

I'm curious about this guy, was he using a standard length Katana, say around 39"? Were you using padded weapons or wasters? If you were usuing a longsword of the standard length around 48" or so I'm a bit surprised you haven't been able to take more advantage of your reach advantage. Also, false edge cuts...


His katana was approx. 40" long, and was a later period version than the earlier jin tachi which is longer and more pronounced in its curve. I was using a longsword that was approx. 47" long and was more parallel edged and with a hand-and-a-half grip.
I was able to take advantage of my longer reach in several of our bouts, but he's gotten much better at binding while parrying and closing the gap during that time. He's gotten in much better shape and is faster now than he was before. He's also not very tall, only about 5'5" compared to me, 5'10", so he is capable of sneaking under me quickly when I go for a high strike like a zwerchau or schielhau.
He is still somewhat defensive, but apparently he says that the way his instructor taught him while he was away. I promote the German style of aggressive fighting which seeks the Vor and not the Nach in Krieg. When he got too defensive and apprehensive to follow up with a strike, that's when I could overrun him with a series of rising cuts or middle cuts, which he had a harder time outmaneuvering.
I was able to use kurzen schneide cuts with my krumphaus, which proved more effective than a langen schneide krump when he came down with descending cuts from a guard called hasso no kamae which is like Vom Dach when it is held close to the shoulder.
We used wooden wasters at first to emphasize control in our first couple of bouts, but our following bouts we padded our wasters and wore full padding and head protection(in the form of a paintball mask since we can't afford regulation fencing masks) so that we could go for full contact.
When going full contact, I felt more comfortable and was able to defeat him, but not with as much ease as before. The very fact that he received private lessons from a very experienced katana fencer is what seems to make him a more formidable foe. I was very impressed with how much he picked up in such a little time, but he also says that his previous cross-training sessions with me and my group has also gave him some good knowledge on the Western style of longsword/greatsword fencing.
We even incorporate one anothers concepts if they seem applicable. For example, I have taught my group the use of Ukemi(or breakfalling and rolling) so that we can practice grappling and throwing in much more safety. I learned this in my 6 years in Aikido. My EMA friend has learned from me the concept of tempo in fight as well as concepts such as Vor, Nach, and Indes, which he says is more clearly instructed in Sigmund Ringeck's manual than it is in his Iajitsu book.
I still got him 6 to 5, but the playing field seems much more level now. I like a challenge... <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

All in all, very interesting account. I would love to see some video of your next bout if you could possibly arrange it.


A friend of mine has a digital camera which can record a few minutes of video. If I can talk him into letting me borrow it for a day and I figure out how to post a link to a video on this forum, I'd love to show you guys exactly what's going on. I'll get on that.

Justin
A man believes what he wants to believe. - Cuchulainn

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Re: Some good cross-training w/EMA

Postby Jake_Norwood » Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:56 pm

Must...resist...urge...to...give...private...lessons...

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JeanryChandler
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Re: Some good cross-training w/EMA

Postby JeanryChandler » Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:12 pm

Man, you know Jeff would corner that market <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

JR
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Re: Some good cross-training w/EMA

Postby Mike Chidester » Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:20 pm

Must...resist...urge...to...give...private...lessons...

Resistance is futile. Give in--Stew already has.
Michael Chidester
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"I have met a hundred men who would call themselves Masters, and taking all of their skill together they have not the makings of three good Scholars, let alone one Master."

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s_taillebois
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Re: Some good cross-training w/EMA

Postby s_taillebois » Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:19 pm

Sounds like the gentleman you sparred with was fairly proficient. Have done some waster sparring with the katana contingent, and virtually none have halfsworded. Lots of wide cuts, and very little with the point. In that sense, any linear strikes (longsword type) seem to be problems for them. And the cruciform hilt (especially for 'tearing down'), and various windings, seem to present problems that some don't know how to deal with...
But here in the hinterlands, good sources of such knowledge are limited...so might be a factor. As is the care which has to be taken in sparring partners (this is a very, very violent place, and by that condition...in any martial art...some will tend to quickly go too far for learning, sport or safety).
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Justin Blackford
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Re: Some good cross-training w/EMA

Postby Justin Blackford » Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:42 pm

Yes, the cruciform hilt did present some problems, but I can see in his eyes when we fought that he is contemplating ways to overcome it. The use of the kron doesn't work as well now that he knows how to seize the opportunity to durchlauffen(I don't know the Japanese term for this concept). But, when I have bound him with the crossguard, I must make use of my grappling or disarm techniques, lest he overcome me with his own. We are both learning a lot from our cross-training experiences. I have a strong feeling that if we keep this up, we could both become very proficient fighters both in our own styles and in cross-training.

Justin
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s_taillebois
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Re: Some good cross-training w/EMA

Postby s_taillebois » Sat Aug 20, 2005 12:59 pm

Interesting. On the cross sparring, did the gentleman do anything with the 'pommel' (I know katanas don't have one, but for lack of a better word). Some have been very vexed, when closed, to have the focus shifted away from the blade.
The ones I've done some sparring with, mainly katana types, but excepting one...not sure how much is premised on a mix of movies or tradition. And since my emphasis has been in the past on epee', and for thelast few years, longsword...don't really know that much about katana style.
Interesting though...here in oblivion, there's roadside vendors selling 'junk' katanas...given the nature of the place, matter of time before someones hacked up by one.
Steven Taillebois

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Mike Habib
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Re: Some good cross-training w/EMA

Postby Mike Habib » Sat Aug 20, 2005 6:49 pm

"All the EMA guys I have fought so far either weren't all that well trained, or were trained in things like Escrima which don't do well against long weapons like swords."

I've actually found some Escrima techniques work pretty well against western swords, though with some heavy adaptations (and some minor grappling to help keep things close).

On the theme of cross-training and reach differences, does anyone have any experience fighting with rattan or jo sticks (I know, rather different weapons) against western swords or polearms?

It's good to be back on the forums...

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Justin Blackford
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Re: Some good cross-training w/EMA

Postby Justin Blackford » Sat Aug 20, 2005 9:15 pm

The kashira is the Japanese "pommel", sort of. He explained that a lot of close-quarter techniques that start from suriwaza, that is combat kneeling down from a seated position on the floor, will often times employ a strike to the face or throat with the kashira before finishing the opponent with a fatal strike from the blade.
We don't do much fighting on the floor in the Western style, though, so he didn't really have a chance to try this one on me.
Surprisingly, he made little use of the thrust, saying that it ultimately was harder to set oneself up for a thrust with a single edged curved blade than with my longer and straighter, double edged one. So, most of his movements happen in two times with a temporary bind which would often lead to an attempt on me with a slash or a half-sword slice or thrust. Good stuff we're teaching each other now. I'm just glad that he finally gave up all that TV crap he kept trying to incorporate into his fights and learned from a qualified instructor. I like opponents who are challenging and severely uncooperative. hehehe...

Justin
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KatherineJohnson
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Re: Some good cross-training w/EMA

Postby KatherineJohnson » Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:26 pm

I've fought a FMA guy before, using both his tools (rattan) and mine. But never one against the other since my 4 ft longsword has a signifigant advantage over his 2ft sticks.

When longsword against longsword, I won pretty consitently, as is to be expected, with rattan against rattan we tended to go back and forth at a pretty even rate.


A jo is just 4 foot long stick, so I'd imagine i'd fight someone using it the same way i'd fight someone with a less deadly version of the longsword. (and probably weild it the same way)
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