Fullplate Riding & Joust

[SzabolcsWaldmann]

Hello!

This one I've taken from the "why the Longsword" thread.

Philippe, thanks for your answer. You're my man <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
My question is, how you ride a horse in Plate. Let's just take a Breast plate with a Backplate, which would be around 15 kgs. With this I surely cannot pull my weight out and sit back all the time (I don't know what it's called) in the second speed, where the horse is not running yet, (is it gallop?). But with this plus weight, soimply standing out while warp9 <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> seems impossible. Remaining sitting seems to be a solution, yet with faster speed you get your, ahem, nuts cracked. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

And if I imagine my full armour, 27 kgs, I just _can't_ imagine how to do it right. And there is not a single person around who would know how. That means, I have to learn it myself, somehow....


thanks ahead,

Szabolcs

[JeffGentry]

Hmmmm

With this I surely cannot pull my weight out and sit back all the time (I don't know what it's called) in the second speed, where the horse is not running yet, (is it gallop?)

are you riding on an english saddle?

the gait's are walk, trott, gallop, and run, i think your talking about a trott and it take's a little getting used to, holding on with your knee's and sitting up straight is key to riding a horse so you are able to post.

And there is not a single person around who would know how. That means, I have to learn it myself, somehow....

yes i agree, I think also they had a sprcialized saddle that would be of assistance to them, if you look at the mounted plate's in Talhoffer and other place's those saddle's don't look like any i have seen, i did see a show awhile back about modern Mongolia and there saddle's look similar to alot of stuff i see in art work.

Jeff

[philippewillaume]

I would say you ride in Armour as you ride without it. It does not change anything.
In trot you can do sitting (you seat all the time), raising (you raise on one diagonal that is one step/time on two) and in suspension you raise all the time (I e you sit above the saddle). They are all feasible in Armour.

The quicker you go the flatter the horse is so the faster you go the more comfortable it is actually. The collected gaits are the most jumpy. And to fight you need collection (as Dom Duarte would say)

Historically speaking the raising trot is a late 18-19th century invention, but it protects the back of the horse on long distance.
By sitting to hard or to heavily (raising or sitting trot), you can damage the horse back and make the all affair a very unpleasant experience for the donkey.

If it is a consolation, I found trotting hard when I started as well, horse riding just takes time.
The problem you will most probably have, is finding out when the Armour is actually causing you problem and when it is the horsemanship.
An Armour that is fine for foot combat may not work well for horse riding. (as in may need to be modified or worn differently.
For that to happen you need a point of reference and that directly dependant of you horsemanship skill.

if you have a mial adress i can send you a picture of my harness.
so that you can see what I mean when i say full plate.

[SzabolcsWaldmann]

Oh, thanks so much.

here's my adress: [email]szabolcs.waldmann@audi.hu">szabolcs.waldmann@audi.hu</a>
or <a href="mailto:cross.hueller@freemail.hu[/email]

I look forward to the pics. And, I would be happy to send you a picture of my harness, and would be interested in your opinion if it's suited for horse or not.

I really like riding and I like my stupid little horse <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
Yet my knees do not <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

OK, as far as I understand, it should not make much difference to ride in harness. The two problems I see in this, are, that trotting push-outs will be a problem for my muscles and knees must take on yet another 27 kgs, and, that by suspension, whan the horse changes direction, speed or simply gets afraid of something, those plus kgs will take me down from the horse.
I've fallen once, so I can imagine what it can be like in harness........ <img src="/forum/images/icons/crazy.gif" alt="" />
Anyway, all this won't stop me from doing it. I just want to do it right from the beginning.

Anyway, the horse itself will be a problem too. Some horses [censored] themselves from simply seeing a harness. My horse, for example, gets afraid from Flags. How I will bring him to joust or swordfight will be yet another problem, currently without solution <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
They say, you have to show the horse everything slowly, showing him the sounds and looks of everything. I've read somewhere, that you have to train with longswords so that your horse sees it and heers the sound, so he can imagine what goes on on his back.

Thanks again <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Szabolcs

[SzabolcsWaldmann]

Oh yes, the saddle. I like to use sports-saddles. The English I do not know, but I have access to Western saddles, which hold the knee better, but they suck in trotting so I discarged it.


Szab

[philippewillaume]

There is a saying about the need of falling 99 times before becoming a good rider (I have a few falls to take yet but I am steadily on my way)

Horse riding is all about your seat, (as in the aid not the way you actually seat).
The seat as your legs and hands is an aid to the conversation with the horse.
The difficulty in horse riding is that for 95% of the time you do nothing, you just need to do what need to be done when it&amp;#8217;s need to be done.

At the moment you are using you own energy (and it is normal, you are learning), when you will become better, your will blend with the horse and use its inertia (for lack of a better word), and your own to raise in the raising trot so you will be using very little of your own energy.
(In the old ways for you to get the idea, you had to do 3 hours of trotting alternating seating, raising and in suspension trot all that without stirrups. The idea was to knacker you so that you could not use muscle power anymore,)
the part of the world you are coming from has a very good horsemanship tradition so you are in the right place to learn.

In our day and age (and even in medieval time), you can not really expert a horse to see a tin can coming at him making clanging noise and for him to be fine with it.
That will require work on foot and building a series of positive experience.
For example, in an indoor school you can walk the horse on foot (i.e. holding hit by the reins or a rope and a neck collar) you being in armour (or with a small flag).
And remember bribery is the most powerful tool in horse riding. Sugar, carrots and bread are the secret of power.

Ps you should receive a mail from me today (I am off jousting this week end).
I can have a look at your harness though it almost impossible to predict what can go wrong. You and your riding instructor will be much better to tell you.

For exemple I wear my placard a bit higher this season because I have and experience with a horse with no break that was familiar with horseriding saying about what does go forward is going up.
And one the dust has settle and the buck and sheep jump stopped my placard had moved from it bucled, Getting it a bit highet fixed it. (as the day after proved it).
So it is really trials and errors&amp;#8230;

phil

[Ashley Bishop]

I had the pleasure at WMAW 2005 to see Kristi Charron give a demonstration of medieval equestrian skills. She has been studying this particular area for 9 years, and riding and training horses for much longer.

What I found particularly interesting was her discussion of the different types of saddles used and how one sat the saddle. I didn't take notes, so forgive me if this is spare, but iirc there was debate over whether to wear one's stirrups "long" or "short" but that the preferred manner for the spear or the joust was to ride "long" - ie essentially standing in your stirrups. The rider was also held by the high cantle and pommel (aft and foreparts of the saddle) so that for the armoured man, you would bear your weight very nearly the same as standing. Any "jounce" would, I assume, be absorbed by the knee.

Kristi uses a portuguese bullfighting saddle, which she says is the closest modern approximation to a medieval war saddle she could afford.

[steve hick]

Ashely-
What I found particularly interesting was her discussion of the different types of saddles used and how one sat the saddle. I didn't take notes, so forgive me if this is spare, but iirc there was debate over whether to wear one's stirrups "long" or "short" but that the preferred manner for the spear or the joust was to ride "long" - ie essentially standing in your stirrups. The rider was also held by the high cantle and pommel (aft and foreparts of the saddle) so that for the armoured man, you would bear your weight very nearly the same as standing. Any "jounce" would, I assume, be absorbed by the knee.

Most of that was from Dom Duarte, and he's even more elaborate than that -- he also has about 5 different ways to use the lance.....

The book is now in final layout, not sure what that means in terms of when it will be available, but its been over 2 years in the making.
Steve

[philippewillaume]

Hello most of the picture I have seen seems to be with long leg.
From my tries having long stirrups (i.e. modern dressage length) is the most convenient.

If you mean to hit someone with a lance (with lance rest and all that so that he does not miss a bit of it) it does make the moving the feet forward so that you brace yourself against the cantle (and it work very well with the Ringeks fencing and wrestling on horse.)

I am not sure of the effect/used of the high cantle the problem being with the fauld of the armor.
So I am not sure that it held the rider that tight. But the standing position is really the position you have in modern dressage

[JeffGentry]

Hey philippe

Looking at Talhofer and Danzig the saddle tree it self look's very short, It almost look's like the cantel is right up under the fauld's or the fauld's go to each side, the saddle's also appear's to be right under there butt in the rear to sort of help lean them into the cantel and hold them up and force them to stand in the stirup's.

IMO

Jeff

[Jeffrey Hull]

I do not know bridlery and tacking so well, so I really have no idea, but just curious:

Would "modern" (like 1700-1900) American and European cavalry saddles -- like what US Civil War reenactors ride -- would these have any skeuomorphic forms (in other words, residual anachronistic elements of design) indicative of lineage to cavalry saddles of Renaissance?

There may be no skeuomorphy so late, especially as utility and lightness of design would probably have negated such by then.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jeff

like what US Civil War reenactors ride

I think in the american cavalry around the period of the civil war they rode on what was called a McLellan(spelling?) saddle, I am pretty sure it was "modern" for the 1850/60's or there about.

I am not an expert on horse's or tack i haven't been around hores in a few year's, i am going strictly by looking at art work and it may be a perspective thing that i am seeing.

Jeff

[philippewillaume]

Hello jeffes

A military saddle is a glorified saddle tree with a bit of leather.
So mac lellan (spelling ?), UP or any military saddle are really the same beast.
German late 1800 early 1900 seems to be the best made and the more confy for the horse and the rider.
But basically it more akin to the western (as in cattle working) /camargue/vaquero than a bull fighting saddle

About the saddle yes you are right Jeff, I should have been more precise what you say does apply to German saddle (mid 1400).
There is no high cantle but more something like two mickey ears. Since the topic was on Portuguese bull fighting saddle, I assume we were talking about Italian medieval saddle (see paolo ucello).

The real problem with medieval saddle is that we do not know the arse that was seating in it. And you can take a western rider and put him in an English saddle he will ride as if he had an western saddle. You can put me in any saddle I will ride as if I had an English saddle.
Basically, you are so use to a body position that you will make the saddle work non the less, unless like modernes dressage saddle where your body can only go one way.
But for that the saddle need to fit, other wise you can make it work for your own riding style.
When I joust I use a UP( late 1800-early 1900) uk military saddle or a Portuguese. It does not change anything on how I ride.
I have an old school classical formation so my position has been worked on with the sadistic rigor of a ballet dancer. So when I am not in the right position I can see the stirrups and the girth go off and the broom handle getting between my arms behind my back.

My personal opinion as to the evolution is that it started like a western/camargue/vaquero type of saddle.
Ie you seat on your arsecheeks sanding on the perineum when fighting/working.
I think 12-13 centry picture shais that especially with a the stirrups attachment being slightly in front or where you seat (so that they are under your when you work).

I believe it slowly evolved to be more a riding on the perineum all the time (like a modern saddle) and to have something to brace yourself against to deliver and receive a couched lance.

But at the end, both option are really equivalent.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Philippe

I think 12-13 centry picture shais that especially with a the stirrups attachment being slightly in front or where you seat (so that they are under your when you work).

You may be right, i see that too, It appear's that the tree of there saddle's(in the artwork) are very short that could just be the nature of the tree's in that time period and they sat the saddle the same as a "western" which realy wouldn't change how they rode.

Jeff

[Jeffrey Hull]

Jeff &amp; Phillipe:

That is all really interesting, thank you for analysis, it guides me in the right direction.