Rapiers

[Rod-Thornton]

Ok. They say a little knowledge is dangerous. Looking at the various attacks and guards of the german longsword, it seems that defending against the rapier thrust would not be much different then defending against the longsword thrusts. However, I am wondering just how the rapier would defend against the longsword cuts and arc-ing attacks(beyond simply beating the cut with a quicker thrust to the brain). There seems to be nothing in my copy of Capo Ferro relative to rapier against a longsword. Everything I envision seems to end in a double kill. (Obviously the rapier must have fought well against longswords, since when it was developed, there were longswords still around). But, say, what could the rapier do (other than try to void) with a good unterhau, etc? -Anybody had good experiences to share? -Thanks.

[Jon Pellett]

That's a good question. You might want to take a look at this if you haven't seen it before; it could be part of the answer.

Cheers

[Jeffrey Hull]

Well, I guess Tom and Christian can make a big deal about that if they so desire.

I can tell you, from practicing such, that one can versetzen a full-power longsword strike with a lowly dagger, if needs must. However, I should emphasise that a doing such a versetzen requires will, timing, and moving the body well. Understand that with a dagger, the whole thing is *staerke* -- there really is no *schwach*.

Unless of course hobbits fight with daggers. Then they become *swords* with discernable *strong* and *weak* sections of blade.

<img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Ryan Ricks]

they key would be not to make a static parry, but try to close in against the cut and engage his longsword on the strong with the strong of your rapier while thrusting, much like ringeck's versetzen thrusts.

remember, the strong of a blade travels more slowly and has less force, so that's where you'd need to engage, if possible

[JeffGentry]

Well gent's

Just my opinion, I would heed the advice of I think it was Silver and "trust to thy heel's" if i had a rapier and was attacked with a longsword.

I am not afraid to run.

Jeff

[Allen Johnson]

This is something that we have played around with in the Provo group a few times. Usually with me manning the knitting needle <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> First of all, I dont think there is any documentable evidence or record of the the two coming in contact with each other. You would never take a rapier into battle and by the time rapier dueling is most common, the longswords are a bit on the decline. But history aside... I think there is a difference between what someone can do and what they should do. I really dont feel that trying to "parry" a strong logsword cut with a rapier is ever adviseable. No matter how strong you are, the longsword is going to beat the rapier away- its just a matter of physics. When I have done this I have had the best results in baiting the longsword user into making a cut and then traverse VERY quickly off his line and counter thrust. Of course if the longsword user is smart and understands how a rapier is used then they will probably be very cautious about making a strong cut. Footwork and speed are very essential in this kind of match up. The longsword has to respect the speed of the rapier and the rapier has to respect the power and range of the longsword. It seems like its a shoe-in victory for the longsword, but if you get someone who knows what they are doing behind the rapier it can be quite an interesting contest.

[SzabolcsWaldmann]

The Order of the Seven Hearts states, that they sparred full-force and with intent a Zornahu against a Rapier, and that they could parry.
Since I never tried anything like this, it's just an opinion, what I will be saying.
I find it hardly believable, that a rapier can parry a fullforce Zornhau. Other cuts? maybe. Yet stopping the cut with the strong or the hilt of the Rapier means, the power of the hau must be held with your arms strength...
I mean, if somebody can block the real-than-real mighty PowerZornHau of one of our best students, with a Rapier, then I would respectfully bow my head.

Szabolcs

[Mike Cartier]

i would have to see a video of this rapier parrying a longsword.
The very notion of handling the best blow of a two handed weapon with a one handed weapon seems dubious to me.

My guess is the Zornhau described in the article there is not what we at ARMA would call a full power, full intent blow.

[Allen Johnson]

I could see this happening- just not an advantageous thing to do. If the rapier user caught the blow right at the thickest part of the ricasso and turned his body so he is standing right behind his sword (on the same line of the cut) and really locked his arm tight- then it could be possible. Of course bigger issue is just cause you 'can' do something, does it mean that you 'should'? We all know what happens when you parry with the edge. Sure, if you do that it WILL stop the cut- many intepret that they 'can' parry with the edge then they 'should' parry with the edge. Unless you have absolutley no other alternative this is not the case. And why stand in the way of a full force zornhau when you can slip back a bit and with a turn of the wrist, void the cut and counter thrust to the face or chest? Sure it can be done - but I would never advise it or say it is a legitimate parry for this kind of match up.

[Rod-Thornton]

A good article. Thanks for the link... (http://www.salvatorfabris.com/RapierPar ... word.shtml) . However, it explains only the actions against a zornhau, which seems almost instinctive with the shift to quarta to catch it and thrust. I still don't see how would you defend against something like a zwerch or an unterhau.

[Matthew_Anderson]

Interesting. I could imagine stiffling a longsword cut by trapping it with the forte/hilt of a rapier on the forte of the longsword. From the description, that sounds like what was done. Trying to set aside or displace a longsword blow with any other part of the blade of a rapier would be difficult at best, but again, that doesn't seem to be the assertion being made. Too bad they didn't take any videos.

[Mike Chidester]

Personally, I'd probably feel better taking advantage of my superior reach and speed than trying to beat a longsword at his own game.

[Stacy Clifford]

I think a rapier with a stout cross section could probably manage deflecting actions against a longsword, like an absetzen to the flat or letting it slide off the length of a hengen, but static blocks with any kind of single hand sword against a two-hander would be pretty foolish except for the previously mentioned stifling. It really depends on how you're being attacked as to whether it's necessary or not though. If a longsword man fights defensively against a rapier, to me he's screwed.

I know that longsword teachings all say to attack the man and not the sword, but in my experiences using a cutting sword against a rapier (usually held by JC), that didn't work too well. The rapier is more nimble with greater range than anything short of a greatsword, so if you attack the body, the cagey rapier fighter can stay clear and still stick you pretty easily. Only two things seem to work very well. Either go in whirling like a runaway Cuisinart, or attack the rapier blade with the purpose of clearing it (or grabbing it if you've got a free hand) for a follow-up attack. Slip cuts work occasionally too. Although a rapier can defend cuts if it has to, it's really a pretty poor defense if you force the issue. The rapier's full advantage lies in staying out of range and avoiding parries against cuts.

[Shane Smith]

Silver says of the rapier in pressed battle; "For the single rapier, or rapier &amp; poniard, they are imperfect &amp; insufficient weapons, and especially in service of the prince. When men shall join together, what service can soldier do with a rapier, a childish toy where with a man can do nothing but thrust, nor that neither, by reason of the length, and in every moving when blows, are dealing, for lack of a hilt is in danger to have his hand or arm cut off, or his head cloven. And for wards and grips, they have none, neither can any of these fine rapier men, for lack of use, tell how to strike a sound blow."

The above pertains to battle against cut and thrust swords but it's at least marginally relevant. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Ryan Ricks]

i concur. i've sparred short sword against john and his rapier. the best bet seems to be staying on the offensive while cutting rapidly from the elbow, so you can beat the rapier off line and follow up.