Volarica

[SzabolcsWaldmann]

Hello,

Just a quick question.

Just what is Vadi's Volarica?

Szabolcs

[Allen Johnson]

Isnt that Vadi's version of the Meisterhau?

[SzabolcsWaldmann]

I do not yet know Vadi, that's why it puzzles me so.
Wait a sec. Italian Masterstrikes? You serious?

Szab

[Allen Johnson]

I'm pretty sure. I'm looking at Chapter 14 and the translation I'm looking at says:
I can not, in writing, show you,
the principle of half time, and the way,
because in the knot* remains
the shortness of the time and of its use.
The half time is only a turn
of the knot, a quick and immediate strike.
It can seldom fail
when it is done with good measure;
and if you note my writing,
he who lacks practice divides not well:
often the blow
breaks with good edge the other’s brain.
Of all the Art this is the jewel,
because at once it strikes and parries .
Oh, it is so precious a thing,
to practice it with good reason,
as it lets you bear the Art’s banner.

That language of both attacking and parrying seems like a textbook masterstrike that would certainly bust open someones brain.

I might be off but thats what I gathered.

[I. Hartikainen]

Hi!

I believe Vadi is speaking of a mezzo tempo defense, where you hit the opponent during his attack, while simultaneously closing the line. I wouldn't really call it a masterstrike, although the use of zornhaw can be somewhat similiar in nature.

Think about, for example, striking downwards when your opponent strikes, so that your sword hits his blade and his head at the same time.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Allen

The principle of half time, and the way,
because in the knot* remains
the shortness of the time and of its use.
The half time is only a turn
of the knot, a quick and immediate strike.

I haven't studied this intensely, The first time i read it my first thought was it sounded like he was talking about something similar to the german twitch going high and low to the four opening's, because turning the hand's is faster than a full arm cut and you can go to the head or body depending on what is defended.


Just MO


Jeff

[SzabolcsWaldmann]

..Strange. Do we know, where Vadi learned his Art? Did he gather it, and if yes, where?
It seems like he truly is speaking of Master strikes, but does not name them. Then again, most strikes can parry and hit in the same time, when used in the right time, right place... Like an Unterhau (Ridoppio) which parries the oppenent's same cut and hist the knee at the same time. Which is almost like a Reversed Zornhau, from both sides, is yet not described as a Meisterhau.

Then again, I had an interesting thought - we are searching for techncs of masterstrikes, and still find different explanations - mostly for the two most difficult ones, Schiel and Krump. What if there just IS no correct way to do them right, for they are not exact technics but philosophies? To "Krump" would then not mean an exact strike, but a manner, with which you'd hit your opponent.

Whatever <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

So anyway, this word, Volarica, what exactly does it mean?

Szabolcs

[M Wallgren]

If I remeber correctly Döbringer don´t call them Meisterhau, but just the five strikes. And Ringeck calles them the secret strikes ... It could mean that the line of learning is from Liechtenauer in Italy but not via the Ringeck and the others who liked to call them the hidden/secret/meister but those who called them just strikes... just a thought...

Martin

[JeffGentry]

Hey Szabolcs

To "Krump" would then not mean an exact strike, but a manner, with which you'd hit your opponent.

Myself and Jake Norwood had a similar discussion and we agreed that seem's to be the general rule with the exception that the name is an indication of how to execute the strike also,Zorn no strike is as ready when you are enraged, Krump goes in a crooked manner, schiel glance's off the opponenet's sword, schietel split's the scalp, Zwerch goes across the body.

Doebringer call's them the hidden strike's and say's most Master know not what to say about them(that is a paraphrase).

What if there just IS no correct way to do them right, for they are not exact technics but philosophies?

I do think there is a correct way to do them because certain element's have to happen for them to be a strike that will hit while protecting you, and if they do not hit they will give you an advantage because they protected you and interfered with the attack of your opponent giving you the iniative that is the beauty in using them, and i think that is why it so hard for them to be described, they are simple in execution(relatively speaking) and complicated to describe because they do so much and that cannot be transmitted simply in writing.

So anyway, this word, Volarica, what exactly does it mean?

I think that is the question that need's answered and then we can better figure out what Volarica realy is.

Jeff

[M Wallgren]

Doebringer call's them the hidden strike's and say's most Master know not what to say about them(that is a paraphrase).

On the contrary my friend;).I just read thrugh the Longsword section of Hankos text. And I did not find any reference to hidden or secret strikes...

Hanko says:
Five strikes learn to do from the right side against the defence. Rage strike [Zornhaw], crooked [Krump], cross [Twere], squinting [Schiler], with the scalp strike [Scheitlere].

Nothing is said on that they should be secret or hidden...

Sorry a little bit OT!!

Martin

[JeffGentry]

Hey Martin

On the contrary my friend;).I just read thrugh the Longsword section of Hankos text. And I did not find any reference to hidden or secret strikes...

Your right, I was going back and forth between Ringeck an Doebringer's text and mis spoke myself, thank's for the correction.

I meant to say the five strike's not hidden strike's.


Jeff

[Jake_Norwood]

It is Vadi's Meisterhau if you define "Meisterhau" as a principle of simultaneous attack and defense, which many people do. I generally define "meisterhau" as one of the "five strikes," but I see Volerica as a principle--one that most of the meisterhauen make use of.

Vadi refers to the knot. The knot is the bind. The bind is acheived any time the swords touch. Thus Vadi's volerica fills the roll of Ringeck's oberschnit, the zorhau against an oberhau, or the schiller against an oberhau or thrust. It even encompases a quick absetsen and schnitt. Additionally it is one of the best arguments for parrying or deflecting with the flat because execution of the technique as Vadi describes it requires one's edge to remain lined up on the opponent even as deflection is achieved with the flat in order to both parry and strike in more-or-less one motion.

Jake

[ChrisThies]

Hello Allen,
The (2001) Porzio &amp; Mele translation of Vadi's Chapter XIV utilizes the word 'wrist' where you've quoted the word 'knot *'. The 'volaricha' would therefore be a mezzo tempo strike as mentioned above. Vadi's 'stramazzone' (Chapter X) would therefore be an example of a 'volaricha', or mezzo tempo, strike.

I've always considered Vadi's 'stramazzone' to be the same type of strike as Lichtenauer's 'duplieren'. They are both initiated from a bind, targeting the opponent's head or face with the long edge.

[Mike Chidester]

It could mean that the line of learning is from Liechtenauer in Italy but not via the Ringeck and the others who liked to call them the hidden/secret/meister but those who called them just strikes... just a thought...

Wasn't Fiore a student of Liechtenauer?

[JeffGentry]

Hey Chris

The reference you mentioned is why i thought it may be refering to a type of twitch, even the reference to knot in the ARMA online manuel's even seem's to say twich in the bind to me.

"I can not, in writing, show you, the principle of half time, and the way, because in the knot* remains the shortness of the time and of its use. The half time is only a turn of the knot, a quick and immediate strike."

In chapter 14 where this is located he is discussing "Reason (principles) of sword Half Time" which seem's to indicate to me what you should do when you bind(ie twitch, wind).

Would those not be half time action's(take half as much time to do)?

Does he ever discuss this else where beside's chapter 14?


Jeff