A sword for the day

[Mike Cartier]

Dusack and Buckler i think or messer and buckler. My viking axe is quite a nasty weapon too. Longsword is nice but a bit too big.

Glad you made it through that horrible NO situation Jeanry
I will be emailing you to talk soon.

[Brian Hunt]

6 foot halberd with a butt spike for my primary weapon, with a arming sword and buckler for a backup.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[JeffGentry]

Hey Mike

Dusack and Buckler i think or messer and buckler.

Now that you mention it Dusack might be another option.


Jeff

[Gene Tausk]

Mr. Rolph:

You have already been warned that the purpose of the ARMA fora are the discussion of European martial arts from the Middle Ages and Renaissance periods. Our fora are not to be used to discuss or "cheerlead" Asian martial arts. There are certainly no shortage of fora or discussion boards to discuss Asian martial arts. This is not one of them.

Your latest post clearly is in violation of our fora rules again. I will not shut down a thread which is entirely on topic (except for your post) and interesting to boot because of your antics.

This is the last post I will make to you on this subject. Constrain yourself to our rules or take it to another forum. I highly recommend you re-read our forum rules.



---------------->>>>>>>gene tausk
SFS
Study Group Leader - Houston ARMA Southside
Forum Moderator

[Justin Blackford]

Oh, and forgot to mention, if it were conceptually possible for people to go about in the modern day with rapiers, swords, and such..we'd have to develop a code stating when and how certain weapons could be worn.

Well, the hypothetical situation which I have created states that one may walk the streets with whatever weapon(s) that he wishes. However, I do like the idea of imposing a code of regulations, especially for the modern world.
On the streets or the highways where one is more likely to encounter trouble from gangs, young ruffians, armed robbers, etc., I think that one should be allowed any weapon they like that seems to work. Certainly, the staff is less conspicuous than most weapons and gets the job done just nicely. Although, shorter, one-handed weapons like a dirk or my tomahawk or an arming sword might be easier to conceal in heavier clothing(like a trench-coat or something of the sort). A concealed weapon could go a long way if ordinances are imposed that prevents certain weapons from being used.

So in a related term to the initial question, how would our conjectural modern 'sword bearer' develop a code of symbols regulating conduct?

Well, if I saw a guy walking around the streets with a rapier and dagger sheathed at his side, I would only assume that he is merely looking to his defense by keeping himself armed and isn't necessarily going to use his weapons for an unlawful purpose.
But, if I saw a guy with a doppelhander slung over his back with a rapier and dagger at his hips and a bunch of shorter throwing knives strapped around his ankles and a boot-knife as well, I would think that this person is more suspicious because having that many arms upon your person at once and claiming that it is only for "personal defense" is beginning to stretch the bounds of credibility. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />
So, I think that an ordinance regarding weaponry should probably state that a weapon-bearing man may have no more than a certain number or combination of weapons upon his person at once when in public.
Personally, I think a sword and dagger or a walking staff would be enough with which to aptly defend myself, so I think that is where the codes should be: on number of arms and/or combination.

Justin

[Stacy Clifford]

Jake, here's the quote from Silver:

The Welch hook or forest bill, have advantage against all manner of weapons whatsoever.

Two names, same weapon. Now if we could just figure out exactly what constitutes a Welch hook, I might be inclined to change my answer...

[Stacy Clifford]

Swetnam is the best place to start because I think he does the best job of explaining the basic concepts and telling you why you need to know them. "Staff for beginners" basically. That's what I taught in Houston, with some additional content from Silver, who covers similar territory in a more confusing manner. I'm hoping to find time to turn this into a paper in the next couple of months. Since you're in the Virginia Beach general neighborhood, next time you see Shane and Matt they can show you what I taught here.

Meyer and Mair both have large staff sections with a style notably different than the English (the basics still apply, but emphasis is different). I've seen a translation of Meyer but not Mair, which David Knight is working on presently. I know of another one I want to track down too and get translated. If anybody's heard from Eli Combs recently, please ask him to get in touch with me.

[Gene Tausk]

Since the original post limited the topic to "urban environment," I would have to go with the rapier. If it was permissible by the civil authorities, then I would carry a buckler. If not, then a cloak as a secondary "weapon."

Although I have no personal interest in the rapier, it is an incredibly effective weapon. Its usefulness as an urban self-defense tool cannot easily be overstated.


-----------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
SFS
Study Group Leader - Houston ARMA Southside

[Mike Chidester]

I'd go with a short longsword. Largely because it's the only weapon I feel confident in my ability to defend myself with. There are a wide variety of techniques that you can rely on even in confined areas where full-arm cuts aren't an option.

[Robert Rolph]

I'm sorry! I didn't mean to be disrespectful! Since you mentioned this forum is about European middle ages martial arts, I won't stray of topic...maybe except to make comparison.

Please accept my sincere apology!

[s_taillebois]

M. Blackford, interesting observation about what level of weaponry would be considered provocative rather than protective. And would need some manner of re-established social conventions about these things. Difficult, insofar as the fairly rigid social heirarchy (ie the falcon reference) under which the salient weapons conventions first developed and were applied ...no longer exists.
Plus when a weapon is worn day to day, not uncommon for certain aspects of clothiers 'style' to get involved. Sort of the engraved dagger or the ornate rapier hilt paradigm. In that regard, perhaps the original Renn/Gothic personal weapons had emphasis's somewhat different from modern perceptions.
Something like a Gucci dagger, quite a concept really...
But a personal weapon, worn openly, will eventually tend to integrate these other motivations. Which brings up a pragmatic issue...if swords etc could be worn...how many would chose the elegance/functionality of original weapons, as opposed to some hyper-movie-macho thing-and how would that change fencing?

[Justin Blackford]

M. Blackford, interesting observation about what level of weaponry would be considered provocative rather than protective. And would need some manner of re-established social conventions about these things. Difficult, insofar as the fairly rigid social heirarchy (ie the falcon reference) under which the salient weapons conventions first developed and were applied ...no longer exists.
Plus when a weapon is worn day to day, not uncommon for certain aspects of clothiers 'style' to get involved. Sort of the engraved dagger or the ornate rapier hilt paradigm. In that regard, perhaps the original Renn/Gothic personal weapons had emphasis's somewhat different from modern perceptions.
Something like a Gucci dagger, quite a concept really...
But a personal weapon, worn openly, will eventually tend to integrate these other motivations. Which brings up a pragmatic issue...if swords etc could be worn...how many would chose the elegance/functionality of original weapons, as opposed to some hyper-movie-macho thing-and how would that change fencing?

Well, certainly a 'styled' weapon or weapon combination might be preferable to one who could afford it without necessarily changing the effectiveness and functionality of the weapon itself. I have a rapier and dagger pair that are made en suite and I have a pair of identical tomahawks that are complemented with a buck-knife that are matched in the ornate designs of their hilts, and yet are still effective weapons. They just cost me more to get the detailed ornamentations completed on them.
I don't think that a 'styled' weapon would change the functionality of it or the fencing method if the style is merely cosmetic. For example a rapier with a "pistol grip" would change the way it needed to be wielded and interfere with the historical method of rapier fencing, because the shape of the weapon has changed. Otherwise, a beautifully detailed weapon that matches one's clothing but still retains it's effectiveness and historical method of use wouldn't really change the fencing techniques.
Though, I can imagine seeing in the modern day Goths walking around with a matching rapier and dagger set that have vampire heads engraved in them or something like that. HAHA! <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> Or maybe we would see a "camoflauged" baldric for a military man's doppelhander. That would look cool!
But, as far as the imposition of regulations for walking on the streets with certain weapons, that might have a hard time going through Congress if at first it was legal to carry any weapon(as in the beginning of my hypothetical situation).
I still think the only regulations that might be imposed would have to be on the number or arms upon a person and/or the consideration as to whether or not this person would use his weapons for an unlawful purpose.
But, even that might not work. People could still conceal a nice dagger or hatchet of some sort in their clothing....

Justin

[s_taillebois]

True, the vampire Goth contingent seems to have an interesting effect on how many of contemporary swords, daggers and such are designed. Even out here in the far hinterlands, such things are fairly popular (or at least sold by the side of the road).
As far as this potential changing fencing...could have some weird effects. As you noted, function and aesthetics need to complement each other. But, in the various theatrically oriented stuff, much of it would seem to be as dangerous to the wielder as to those upon which they would be presumably used. For example, the spiked hilts of which they are so fond.
If fencing, dagger or staff became popular again...it would seem it would quickly recycle aspects what happened when the fechtbuchs were first printed, and some new issues. Obviously, the internet sword situation has a some parallel's to the printed books, insofar as fencing 'secrets' are made available to anyone with the wherewithal. But the new issue, is that we are a society which has not been routinely exposed to the power of these weapons. And as such, many of those adopting these things, could be somewhat lacking in respect for the dangers and potentials. No doubt the Renn/Gothic fence schools had their, 'oopsie slash, Oh my God..., sorry?', incidents. But mayhaps it was self selecting against idiocy, namely they probably died from infections.
So in that regard, where would such as ARMA, fit into a resurgance of fence/dagger, as a self protection art? And how would learning from the dead masters, compensate for modern innovations, be it stupid (ie self proclaimed sword warriors), or something new and potentially practical (ie on the reservation, and in the barrios, there are some very workable techniques for edged weaponry). And how would the distinction between sport and otherwise be maintained?

[Jaron Bernstein]

"So in that regard, where would such as ARMA, fit into a resurgance of fence/dagger, as a self protection art? And how would learning from the dead masters, compensate for modern innovations, be it stupid (ie self proclaimed sword warriors), or something new and potentially practical (ie on the reservation, and in the barrios, there are some very workable techniques for edged weaponry)."

For the ringen and dagger side I can most certainly see this as a modern self defense art. As for the sword aspect....I am not so sure. Yes, you can develop your skill with a sword. That is why we are here. But, how often are you likely to carry a sword in public?

[s_taillebois]

Virtually none, especially since my main interest is in the discipline and sport aspect, insofar as the swords go.
The reason I brought the question, is to ascertain how it may affect perceptions of what this manner of fencing actually is.
That said, unfortunately,there are places where edged weapons are much more than a discipline or a sport. Even here in the US-and I wonder when old (and very effective European techniques) might start to be re-used for less than noble ends.
From my view, it is a discipline and a means to connect with my ancestors. Granted that these ancestors did some appalling things with those skills....but within their morality, they believed it was duty, honour or necessity (Gods know how Towton or Agincourt or murdering Joan of Arc, fitted into that...but that's their past, not ours)
And indirectly, one of the reasons why I was pondering as to how to relate the old fecthbuch mentions of morals (such as these were) within a contemporary fencing framework...relates to attitudes about sparring I've seen a few loose ends exhibit. Essentially a reckless abandon, without control or discipline. And how does one train or spar with such people, and as the popularity of historical fencing increases, how will they be absorbed? For example, I've carefully chosen training associations because of the aforementioned problem (not that there are many here in the wind swept hinterlands anyway...)