Messer and Wallerstein

[Derek Gulas]

Hello all,

I'm not sure if this question has been addressed or not. In the Codex Wallerstein all the techniques for the Grosse Messers being depicted using only one hand, although they have a grip which would seemingly allow a two handed grip quite easily. Can it be assumed that the Messer techniques depicted in the Wallerstein are just specialized techniques, and that most other two-handed longsword techniques will also work with it?

Thanks,

[Mike Chidester]

It is my understanding that a messer is designed to be used one-handed. It was often carried as a sidearm by archers for this reason. There are manuals depicting messer and buckler fighting as well. But if you fought with the messer and a free hand, you were free to two-hand it for certain techniques. Overall, though, the messer isn't really ideal as a two-handed weapon.

[ChrisThies]

Hello Derek,
In the introduction to the Zabinski & Walczak translation of the Codex Wallerstein, page 3, they make mention of your observation of the grip depiction of those messers in plates 57-64. I didn't see them specifically referred to as 'grosse messers' though. Clements sums up the falchion weapons on page 43 of his 'Medieval Swordsmanship' (i.e. most were single handed, some suitable for two handed grips).

There is a two-handed cleaver depicted in Folio 10 Verso of the Maciejowski Bible:
http://www1.tip.nl/~t401243/mac/mac10vA.jpg
(BTW, when I did a search for this image I stumbled upon a modern replica vendor of this item and another similar one at:
http://www.mwart.com/xq/ASP/pid.913/qx/product.htm
http://www.mwart.com/xq/ASP/pid.823/qx/product.htm
I have no knowledge of the quality of these replicas).

And there is also a particular 'Jagdschwert' at the Deutsches Jagdmuseum, Münich, that could be viewed as a two-, or hand-and-a-half-handed, messer.

[Jake_Norwood]

Hi Derek.

Actually, there is very little material depicting two-handed usage of the messer, despite the fact that many--if not most--feature such long handles.

In my own practice I actually find that using the second hand hinders my ability to effectively wield the messer. Likewise its mass distribution is so different from that of a long sword that although the weapons are deeply connected I find that many of the single-handed techniques of the messer are quite unwieldy with a longsword. Particularly those from Wallerstein.

Hope that helps.

Jake

[GaryGrzybek]

It seems that in some cases that extra long grip was used for trapping. I haven't seen any historical examples of this particular weapon used with two hands. Also consider that half sword techniques work quite well <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Derek Gulas]

Actually that helps a lot. Thanks for the quick response. But what about really big Messers, like the Kriegsmesser on www.albionarmorers.com? Do you think those would be more suitable for two-handed use?

thanks,

[Derek Gulas]

Hi,

Which manual is it that depicts these messer and buckler techniques? This sort of thing really interests me <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Brian Hunt]

The Thott version of Talhoffer shows messer and buckler.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Jake_Norwood]

I've seen a few woodcuts here and there. I can't think of any proper manuals for the huge messers off hand, though they were used two handed, AFAIK.

Jake

[Rod-Thornton]

Is this an example of a two-handed messer being employed? I am unsure of what exactly a messer is....

http://www.thearma.org/arttalk/at1NEW.htm

(ref: Maj. Bible tapestry - dude in the center left striking and cleaving dude on the ctr-right.)
-Thanks.

[Matthew_Anderson]

Rod,

No, that's not a messer IMO. The Maciejewski Bible illuminations contains lots of weird weapons not seen elsewhere, such as the two-handed "blade on a stick". The messer is a pretty specific weapon, especially in terms of hilt design. They seem to have a wide range of sizes, including some that appear to be really big, two-handed weapons. I'll see if I can dig up a pic of one.

[Jeffrey Hull]

Not to toot my own horn, but rather hoping to help:

You may note the distinction that Wittenwiller, for example, seems to make between *long messer* and *short messer* in the new translation I did:

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/HW-Web.htm

I hope that helps in some way.

[Axel Pettersson]

http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/heymr.htm

scroll down a bit and you will find a picture of John Clements holding what is described as a "grossemesser or a grossesabel", the text to the pictures aswell as the pictures themselves tells you it is fit for both onehanded and twohanded use.

As it says, it could be a "grossesabel", I have seen some pictures of those someplace else (cannot remember where at the moment), the distinction between them and messers with a two handed grip is to me pretty vague ( due to my lack of knowledge).


in Albions new "maestro" line of swords a messer is displayed, in the description it says that:


"We can see from presentations in art that the Kreigsmesser was put to use in much the same advanced fighting techniques as was the longsword. These techniques were in no way crude or simple: the moves described require quick and expertly balanced weapons of offence and defence."

hope it helps somewhat.