A sword for the day

[s_taillebois]

Aaron off post a little...but the vests, have these things been made any better ventilated? You mentioned they have improved, has it been enough so can be worn without feeling like one's encased in a plastic bag? Back in the 80's, wearing those things was somewhat uncomfortable.
As for armor/mail, brigandine-what have you in contemporary settings. Comfort would be a factor...compared to past periods, modern clothing is easy to wear (and bear), so I'd wonder how many would wear protective gear, of the manner being discussed, even if it was available.
In the Gothic/Renn, outer clothing was much more of a social status statement...and if it was somewhat of a nuisance to prepare, or wear, so what. The social message played a larger role in it's chosing. Under those terms, mail under the cotehardie, doublet etc...who'd care.
As a related question...anyone here done any test cutting through layers of the fairly course weave linen and like materials commonly used for Gothic/Renn clothing? Would seem that a course weave linen, under the right conditions, might change the effect of an edge (rather than the point) of a dagger/etc. Not quite into Gambeson territory, but speaking more of several layers of loosely fitted clothing.

[JeanryChandler]

The Greeks used to make armor out of (hardened) linen, something they called 'linothorax' which replaced the old bronze body armor of the Hoplite around the time of the Theban ascendency, and was retained through Alexanders time and after. Matthew Amt (of the Roman re-enactment group Legio XX) made some and interestingly, found that it was remarkably cool, which may have been it's chief advantage.

And to Aaron, yeah I know better than to tease that guy, couple of remarks & I left when it was clear he wasn't in the mood for jokes... Suffice it to say circumstances here are rather unusual at the moment, and this was in a bar in social scene after all, he was apparently not on duty. I dont even know if he was a cop, a fed, or some kind of security guard.

Anyway, dont worry about me I'm an old conformist honest tax paying citizen these days, I have plenty of law enforcement friends.

As for Kevlar, I didn't mean better than plate armor, but those heavy flak vests we had in the Army back in the 80's were probably superior to an average aketon or jupon, I would say, in terms of absorbing blunt trauma. But I'm just guessing based on the density, and what I have seen of reproduced quilted padded armor.

Interestingly, I saw a show on Discovery channel a while back about knife attacks on police in England and their attempts to create a knife proof vest... by the end of it, they concluded that mail was actually the most effective protection they could come up with so far, by a long shot.

More proof our forbears had a lot on the ball..

JR

[Richard Strey]

On the "taking people serious" topic:
I can't really put a finger on all the factors that make me classify someone as capable or potentially dangerous in a physical encounter. A lot of that seems to be subliminal signals. One thing stands out, however, and meshes quite well with Jeanry's observation. People who are proficient with a weapon in a pragmatic way wear it like a pair of shoes. They're there, but you don't notice or care about them, unless you're in deep [censored]. Wannabees usually carry their equipment around like some precious treasure or a sign at a political demonstration.

p.s.: Jeanry, I haven't been able to say so before, I'm very glad you made it through those storms without physical harm to you or your loved ones. Should you make it to Cologne some day, you'll have a place to stay and train. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" />

[Aaron Pynenberg]

I also have heard of chain mail possibly being reused in that regard. There are alot of applications for it and in the future I would not be surprised if something like that became available. I know that there was a titanium vest that was being tested not that long ago.

Jeanry, 80's era bulky vests, I think then you are talking flak vests which I think were only good for limited shrap nall applications, and had no ballistic proof qualities, no? Even today some of the Army's vests are only for the shrap bursts and are not ballistic, but most are these days.

-I guess I understand what you guys mean by newbies and wannabes etc...but if they are carrying a weapon and have some type of uniform on, (whatever that might be) I think they probably have had some training in it's use. I guess my point to some extent is that you are not qualified to make those assements based on looks alone. I know plenty of VETS, whom have been in Iraq who were carrying weapons and did their duty as was required. To look at them now you would think they are just young kids, but you should not mistake thier abilities by looks. As Martial Artists I would think that would be a pretty basic lesson. Watch any footage of Iraq and you will see some soilder walking around with weapons slung that looks as if he just got out of high school and chances are he/she did, but chances are good they are capable and probably expirenced.

I am amazed at the cases of PTSD we are starting to see from soilders who have returned home, they are young and younger- Aaron

[Grant Hall]

Forgive me if this seems off topic, I am actually trying to continue the thread.

Alot of people are mentioning the cost of Kevlar and what not, but I ask, if someone said they would give you $10,000 on the promise that in ten years they would return to kill you, would you take it?
Likewise if someone said to you that if you gave them $10,000 they would ensure your safety for the next ten years would you not pay them? (Think about it, $1,000 a year and you know that you are safe, that's pretty good)

So I guess what I'm say is, how can you put a price on your life? We spend a LOT!!! more on cars and houses and what not.

Another thing, along the lines of experimental armors, I have heard that the U.S. Army is working on a suit of Armor that is composed of a gel like substance that hardens on impact and then returns to its flexible state, thus their soldiers can maneuver in the field without restriction but when they need protection (on impact) it is suddenly there. I also heard that it would be available (to U.S. soldiers) by 2025.

And one last thing, apparently the U.S. Army also has a set of metalic leg frames that allow their marines to carry another 300lbs of equiptment.

If we take all these things into account image what kind of armor would be available today if it's use had never died out, swords would be a little different too. (assuming there were no guns)

anyway thanks for putting up with my ramblings I'll let you be now.

Cheers.

[Robert Rolph]

I don't think all these body armor would practical! In the modern age, there are regulation of what you can wear to work! And how many times are you going to actually be in a real, life and death situation? Remember! This is not Ancient Rome or the Medieval Europe where the living condition was horrible, even compared to the third world! What about thugs carrying firearms? But you don't see people wearing bullet prove vest walking down the street, do you?

[Grant Hall]

I've been in PLENTY of life and death situations, and I live in Australia. Imagine what the world would be like if EVERYONE carried a sword or a knife/dagger. At least HALF the pub fights you see people get into would turn out with someone either dead or very badly wounded.
And the answer to why dont people wear vests all the time? probably cause of the reasons poeple have mentioned (heat, expense, weight) but if everyone had swords I think ALOT more people would be wearing Armor. I myself wouldnt go to the pub without medium to heavy armor, and atleast twenty mates!

I've been in weapon fights, (Crowbars, baseball bats etc.) and I wish I had had some armor Then, I wouldn't even dream of being in a fight witout armor if my opponent had a Sword!!!!

I think that if it had ALWAYS been legal for everyone to carry swords, and if it still was, then we would definately be seeing very modern designs on armor.

Thanks for your time.

Cheers.

[Jeffrey Hull]

There have been times that wearing a full Gothic harness would have been nice aboard a city bus, train, etc, in my experience... <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Jeremy Martin]

I thought they made kevlar with some sort of metal thread woven into it to make it more effective against cuts and punctures. As for the weight of kevlar vests, aren't there varying thicknesses?

And if you want something to help against punches, put little spikes on it. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just curious, but what about kevlar with mail sewn onto the back of it(or front)?

In this theoretical situation, I'd certainly wear mail sewn into a shirt.

From my first post, the forest bill would be for intimidation. Even in crowded places you'd probably have room to use it as well(or could make room, heheh), unless you're in the Tokyo subway at rush hour. Also, since it's probably already be in your hands, you won't waste time with having to draw a weapon.

A good cut and thrust sword would be a bit more reasonable to carry around daily. Would be a usefull all-round weapon.

And my punch dagger would be all buisness for backup or extremely tight quarters. They're nasty weapons. Also good if I'm ambushed and can't reach any other weapon in time(say if I don't have one in my hand already, like the bill, or if said weapon is knocked away).

I'd probably keep a few other daggers and knives in hidden spots. Cause you never know. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />



As for reality, I carry a tactical folder as well. Fairly large blade for a folder. I have a few neck knives and hidden belt daggers, but I just can't find a way to carry my neck knives in a way I like. Basicly, you need to rig your neck knife in a harness sort of way, where it hangs down but is held in place there. Otherwise it could swing into a position where you may not be able to reach it very well. I'd carry a pair of brass nucks, if they were legal. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Rod-Thornton]

Grant,
You write "...I wouldn't even dream of being in a fight witout armor if my opponent had a Sword..."

You will find, as you read through alot of the German longsword, and Italian rapier that much of what you'll learn and train for is exactly this sort of fight....
namely, unarmored.

[Shane Smith]

but if everyone had swords I think ALOT more people would be wearing Armor.

If everyone else carried swords, I'd still carry my gun.

Based on my answer above, it should be obvious that this thread is really starting to wander off-topic a great deal as kevlar isn't period. Jeanry's input concerning the linen armour is pretty darn interesting however... Let's get back on-topic as outlined in the forum rules http://www.thearma.org/forum/

[Shane Smith]

Excellent point Rod. You can't live day to day in full harness as you go about your normal business. It simply wasn't/isn't practical unless your business required you to be in harness as in the case of a Knight on the field of battle or a duel was arranged.

[Matthew_Anderson]

Yes, it only stands to reason that you have to train a lot more to be confident in blossfechten. It's way more risky than armoured fighting. In the words of Fiore Dei Liberi:

" Also I, Fiore, told my students who had to fight in the barriers that fighting in the barriers is much and much less dangerous than fighting with cut and thrust swords in zuparello darmare because to the one who plays with sharp swords, failing just one cover gives him death. While the one who fights in the barriers and is well armoured, can be given a lot of hits, but still he can win the battle. Also there is another fact: that rarely someone dies because he gets hit."

So apparently armour is for wimps <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Grant Hall]

So apparently armour is for wimps

Or for people with brains and a reason to live <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

In keeping with the original question, I would want to be "expertly" trained in unarmed combat (all three phases), and I would carry a Doppelhander (my personal fav) then for more practical reasons (cramped quarters / crowded places etc.) I'd have a cut'n'thrust and/or a dagger or two.

I would also wear a Kevlar/chain mail combo and ride a motorbike so I could wear a helmet and have some minimum head protection.

I dont mean to sound "like a wimp" with the whole armor thing, but if you had ever been hit seven times in the head with a crowbar then you would have a better understanding of where it is I'm coming from.

[Mike Chidester]

I dont mean to sound "like a wimp" with the whole armor thing, but if you had ever been hit seven times in the head with a crowbar then you would have a better understanding of where it is I'm coming from.

I've been solidly hit on the head by a wooden sword at full speed and power if that counts. (I bled... a lot.)