New Youth Article

[Jon Pellett]

Yeah, Silver is maddenly vague, and desperately needs a good glossary. (Case in point, what the heck does "double" mean? ) Nonetheless I've seen it recommended as a clear source, good for beginners! <img src="/forum/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I tend to agree generally with Ben A. though. Though there isn't any absolute rule given that you must always fly out, AFAIK, there are numerous individual cases where you are told to do so, and I can't recall a single case where you are instructed to make a follow-on attack. Aid my failing memory if I'm wrong, here.

Cheers all

[ChrisThies]

Hello Benjamin,
In reply to the Silver's Brief Instructions Ch. 5, note 4, you cited:

4. If you meet with one that cannot strike from his ward, upon such a one you may both double &amp; false (feint)&amp; so deceive him, but if he is skillful you must not do so, because he will be still so uncertain in his traverse that he will still prevent you of time &amp; place, so that when you think to double &amp; feint, you shall gain him the place &amp; there upon he will be before you in his action, &amp; your coming he will still endanger you.

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I thought I'd underscore the difficulty of interpreting Silver by saying that I read this particular note as being ALL about distance and footwork, not about any specific striking.

"If you meet with one that cannot strike from his ward" - your opponent cannot strike because he's out of distance;

"upon such a one you may both double &amp; false (feint)&amp; so deceive him" - you have the option of closing distance with a double [step] and a false [step], thereupon to strike/thrust as you would see fit, BUT;

"but if he is skillful you must not do so, because he will be still so uncertain in his traverse" - if he's good you shouldn't close the distance such because he can execute a traversing footwork upon your advance, thus placing himself in proper position;

"that he will still prevent you of time &amp; place," - meanwhile his traverse will place you out of proper position for your intended attack;

"so that when you think to double &amp; feint, you shall gain him the place &amp; there upon he will be before you in his action, &amp; your coming he will still endanger you." - he was out of distance, you closed it for him (with your double &amp; false step), but now with a simple traverse he's at a proper place - and your not.

Another way of looking at the text.

[Jon Pellett]

Hey Chris

I'm not Ben, but IMO you actually not far wrong.

"If you meet with one that cannot strike from his ward" - your opponent cannot strike because he's out of distance.

"Ward" refers specifically to a parry or parrying position, rather than a guard in general (which is called a "fight" or "lying"). "Striking from his ward", hence, refers to a riposte or counterattack. You are, as a general rule, expected to be without distance. (I can provide strong evidence for all this upon request.)

The exact meaning of this is arguable, but in IMO he is talking about Craig's "poor fencer", someone who relies on predictable parries, and can't turn this defence into a slip or counterattack. Against these kind of people, you can step forward, using a feint followed by a real attack, or a combination attack, which will draw his defence and allow you to defeat it.

upon such a one you may both double &amp; false (feint)&amp; so deceive him" - you have the option of closing distance with a double [step] and a false [step], thereupon to strike/thrust as you would see fit, BUT;

Why do you suggest that the double and false are steps? False is a well-attested contemporary term for "feint." "Double" can refer to a sudden retreat or deceptive turn, as in "doubling back," but it doesn't seem to be connected to footwork in Silver.

"but if he is skillful you must not do so, because he will be still so uncertain in his traverse" - if he's good you shouldn't close the distance such because he can execute a traversing footwork upon your advance, thus placing himself in proper position;

Exactly, but don't forget the "uncertain" part - see BI 4.16. In general you aren't supposed to close distance with a committed action at all, because this is always possible. Instead, you are supposed to keep your distance and force your opponent to commit to moving forward to attack, so you can do the same thing to him - this is the central tactic of Silver's system. See BI Cap. 1.

"that he will still prevent you of time &amp; place," - meanwhile his traverse will place you out of proper position for your intended attack;

You got it.

"so that when you think to double &amp; feint, you shall gain him the place &amp; there upon he will be before you in his action, &amp; your coming he will still endanger you." - he was out of distance, you closed it for him (with your double &amp; false step), but now with a simple traverse he's at a proper place - and your not.

Right, except that there's no need to assume that false and double are steps. (Though of course if you have reason to believe they are then I'd love to hear.)

Cheers

[ChrisThies]

Hello Jon,
I proposed that Ch.5, note 4, of Silver's BIofPod is ALL about distance &amp; footwork, specifically that 'double' and 'false' can be references to footwork, simply because it's possible to interpret them as such. That's the nature of Silver's work, account his broad application of terminilogies.

Silver defines 'false times' in Ch.18 of PoD rather broadly :

The false times are these:
The time of the foot,
the time of the foot and body,
the time of the foot, body, and hand, (and)
the time of the feet, body, and hand.

Take your pick.

I can't find his definition of 'double', so it could be interpreted as referring to a specific footwork step, a double strike, or even a specific type of disengage. Again, take your pick.

As far as a 'ward' being his terminilogy for a specific parry or parrying riposte, I don't see this as precluding the text cited as being an example starting out of distance, as far as I understand the following excerpt from Ch.4 of PoD:

For they verily think that he that first thrusts is in great danger of his life, therefore with all speed do they put themselves in ward, or Stocata, the surest guard of all other, as Vincentio says, and thereupon they stand sure, saying the one to the other, "thrust if you dare", and says the other, "thrust if you dare", or "strike or thrust if you dare", says the other. Then says the other, "strike or thrust if you dare, for your life". These two cunning gentlemen standing along time together, upon this worthy ward, they both depart in peace, according to the old proverb: "It is good sleeping in a whole skin."

'Stocata' is defined as a variable fight in Ch.4 of BIofPoD. His 'variable fight' is defined in Ch.11 of PoD.

And I notice that note 4 of Ch.5 of BIofPoD, if looked upon as a situational example of footwork, would be interestingly echoed in the 3rd paragraph of Ch.16 of BIofPoDs:

Upon this ground some shallow witted fellow may say, if the patient must keep large distance, then he must be driven to go back still, to which I answer that in the continual motion &amp; traverses of his ground he is to traverse circularly, forewards, backwards, upon the right hand,&amp; upon the left hand, the which traverses are a certainty to be used within himself, &amp; not to be prevented by the agent, because the agent comes one upon a certain mark, for when he thinks to be sure of his purpose, he patient is sometimes on the one side, &amp; sometimes on the other side, sometimes too far back, &amp; sometimes too near, so still the agent must use the number of his feet which will be too long to answer the hand of the patient agent, &amp; it cannot be denied but (that) the patient agent by reason of his large distance, still sees what the agent does in his coming (in), but the agent cannot see what the other (will) do, 'til the patient agent be into his action, therefore too late for him either to hurt the patient, or in due time to defend himself, because he entered into his action upon the knowledge of the patient, be he knows not what the patient agent will do 'til it is to late.

As far as food for thought goes, one would never starve with a copy of Silver's text.

[Jon Pellett]

I proposed that Ch.5, note 4, of Silver's BIofPod is ALL about distance &amp; footwork, specifically that 'double' and 'false' can be references to footwork, simply because it's possible to interpret them as such. That's the nature of Silver's work, account his broad application of terminilogies.

Hmm, yeah, but we can look for applications of the terms in the texts to find out what they mean. "False" as an adjective is used by SIlver in a variety of contexts, but as a verb (as in 5.4) or noun I think the meaning is pretty certain - feinting. See Brief Instructions 14.3-4 and Paradoxes 7 and 24, and outside of Silver in Swetnam, DiGrassi, the OED, etc.

I can't find his definition of 'double', so it could be interpreted as referring to a specific footwork step, a double strike, or even a specific type of disengage.

Double is trickier, and gets used again as an adjective in a bunch of senses. There is the reference is Paradox 36 to "doubling of thrusts", though, and I can't find any uses which point to footwork.

As far as a 'ward' being his terminilogy for a specific parry or parrying riposte, I don't see this as precluding the text cited as being an example starting out of distance...

I agree that in 5.4 you would be starting out of distance, it's just that I don't think that's what "cannot strike from his ward" means.

And I notice that note 4 of Ch.5 of BIofPoD, if looked upon as a situational example of footwork, would be interestingly echoed in the 3rd paragraph of Ch.16 of BIofPoDs:

Yeah, I'd say they are talking about the same thing.

As far as food for thought goes, one would never starve with a copy of Silver's text.

Amen!

Cheers

[Stacy Clifford]

Hmmm, hadn't thought about it in terms of footwork. Funny thing is any one of our interpretations makes for fairly decent advice. I don't think I'd ever recommend Silver to a beginner as a "clear source" to get started with when even experienced martial artists have trouble figuring out what he's saying.