Morning Stars & Maces Against Plate Armor

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Robert Murphy
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Morning Stars & Maces Against Plate Armor

Postby Robert Murphy » Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:15 am

Hullo all,

Can anyone fill me in in re the use of non-edged weapons during the late Middle Ages--Renaissance? Specifically, I am curious as to just how effective (e.g.) a mace or a morning star would be against a combatant in a full suit of plate. I have heard (from unreliable sources) that these weapons were used to bash an opponent to the ground, where he could then be dispatched by a short sword or dagger thrust to a weak spot. I have also heard that these weapons would/could be used against the articulated joints of a suit of plate, i.e. to where their opponent's movement in the given area would be limited. Finally, one account I've come across contends that a strong enough blow by a heavy enough weapon against the head or main body of an opponent could create enough shock to incapacitate, even kill. (Especially if said opponent was on the ground.)

Any and all feedback greatly appreciated.

Robert

P.S. A dim question, I know, but... In an arms museum or two I have often come across maces with very 'un-lethal looking' small heads. While they almost looked 'ceremonial' to me, I was told that they were indeed used in battle, well into the time where full plate was in use. Anyone have any ideas here? ;-)
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Re: Morning Stars & Maces Against Plate Armor

Postby Stacy Clifford » Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:56 am

As far as I'm aware, that information sounds fairly accurate, though others here may be able to verify. Plate armor doesn't cut easily, but plate armor with big dents in it would be very uncomfortable. As for maces with small heads, a ball-peen hammer from your toolbox may not have a very large head, but smash a metal bucket with it as hard as you can and see what kind of damage it will do. Now give it an 18-inch handle and a couple of sharp corners on the head and your knight is crunchy on the outside, but soft in the middle.
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Re: Morning Stars & Maces Against Plate Armor

Postby Shane Smith » Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:23 pm

I have put very large dents in helms with a sword that while not lethal maybe, would almost certainly have caused a blunt trauma. A heavy mace or axe would almost certainly land a killing blow if a good, clean shot was landed right on target. All the above said, armours have rounded and angular contours to thwart such a spot-on delivery of force and when combined with martially sound footwork, landing such a blow may not be as easy as it first appears. I have had my bell rung by a murder stroke or two with a swords crossguard so I can tell you that even with a decent lining, some shots DO hurt. Indeed several armoured fighting manuals actually start the longsword sections in harness with a blow to the head with the blade so they knew it worked then too to scramble brains if not to cleave them. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
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Re: Morning Stars & Maces Against Plate Armor

Postby s_taillebois » Thu Oct 27, 2005 9:37 pm

And also there was a psychological factor to the success of maces, war hammers and the like...
M Shane mentions the effect of getting struck with the cross of a sword being somewhat disorienting. But another tactical advantage of these weapons would be the psychological unease provoked by the means by which these weapons worked-especially with a successful blow. One of the problems for battlefield medicine of the time (for those who got any treatment at all), was getting a section of badly deformed armour/close helmet- off without killing the wounded patient. So for an armour plated aristocrat in a fight, it may have been a limiting behaviorial factor. To be faced with the potential that one of the things which protected him and set him aside from the lower orders...could also cause a singularly unpleasant death or wound, even by the brutal standards of the time...likely would cause a moments pause when confronted by these weapons. Ironically mayhaps that's why eventually these got so popular with that same class...
And... 'crunchy on the outside and soft in the middle'...envious of your phrasing...that's quite an image.
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Robert Murphy
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Re: Morning Stars & Maces Against Plate Armor

Postby Robert Murphy » Fri Oct 28, 2005 1:57 am

Quite a haul of info here; thanks fellows!

Interesting; it seems I did not realize that plate armor was fairly (for lack of a better term) 'malleable' when subjected to heavy blows, but as I think about it, this seems perfectly plausible. After all, its thickness was necessarily limited by the fact that had it had to be light enough to fight in.

The ballpeen (one or two words?) analogy is a good one. Again, chewing on some kindly provided food for thought here, I have the impression that maces and morning stars and the like seemed to have been either curiously small (the 'ballpeen model') or intimidatingly large (the 'sledgehammer model'), with not much of an 'in between?' Just a thought...

Cheers,

Robert

P.S. After I learn a little more (re: Medieval combat) I promise my posts will become increasingly less characterized by apostrophe-encased terms of my own making; until then, my sincere thanks to all for not (figuratively) hacking apart the new guy. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" />
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Re: Morning Stars & Maces Against Plate Armor

Postby Robert Rolph » Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:35 am

Maybe if they had been made of thinner metal plates encased in leathers...maybe the blow wouldn't be so devestating! Then maybe they could have taken them off from an injured knight quite easily! ANd, maybe The outer-softer leather would act as shock absorber against blunt force and harder leather underneath would prevent the sword from penatrating. But maybe a sword would penetrate it, so the same thickness is better. JUst a thought, though! <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />
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Re: Morning Stars & Maces Against Plate Armor

Postby JeffGentry » Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:15 am

Hey Robert

Interesting; it seems I did not realize that plate armor was fairly (for lack of a better term) 'malleable' when subjected to heavy blows, but as I think about it, this seems perfectly plausible. After all, its thickness was necessarily limited by the fact that had it had to be light enough to fight in.


One other thing to remember too is that a smith made the plate armour in his shop with a hammer and anvil, if he couldn't shape it with his hammer it didn't work.


Robert:

They tried other thing's before plate, armour was developed as weapon's and tactic's changed to defeat the armour of the day, then they would develope new armour and it is still going on to this very day.

Can we say kevlar against bullet's, trauma plate's made from ceramic?

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Re: Morning Stars & Maces Against Plate Armor

Postby david welch » Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:58 am

Also, make sure you don't get tunnel vision when looking at this stuff.

Sources such as Flos Duellatorum show they had a very high level understanding of "stick grappling". They knew how to fight with a lever to destroy joints, and use a lever as a choke device. It is entirely possible, (and I am starting to think probable) that they used at least the longer (around 24") maces, war hammers, and the like in the a half-swording/stick grappling manner to disable their enemy, and then beat them to death as the Coup de Gras.
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Re: Morning Stars & Maces Against Plate Armor

Postby Joachim Nilsson » Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:32 pm

David Welch wrote:
It is entirely possible, (and I am starting to think probable) that they used at least the longer (around 24") maces, war hammers, and the like in the a half-swording/stick grappling manner to disable their enemy, and then beat them to death as the Coup de Gras.


Oh yes. Most definately. Look at the halfswording in Talhoffer's 1467 Ed. Then compare it to the poleaxe/pollaxe/pollhammer-plates from that same fechtbuch. Same movement patterns, same principles.
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Re: Morning Stars & Maces Against Plate Armor

Postby Robert Murphy » Fri Oct 28, 2005 6:19 pm

Danke for the feedback, all!

Jeff: your reference to modern body armor really is hardly OT when considering the history of warfare. Interesting that the issue of helmets around the turn of the centurey marked the reappearance of (at least in some form) armor on the battlefield, after over a century where it had been almost entirely absent. (Hey, cavalrymen wearing breastplates don't count. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) It might not be a stretch to say that the US Army's development and issue of Interceptor body armor is another landmark: for the first time in some time troops have body armor which is effective against their foe's primary weapon; i.e. it can stop a 7.62mm bullet. (I imagine that other Western--and here I include Japan and S. Korea--are beginning to equip their soldiers in like fashion?)

Uhm, being the world's premier expert on Medieval combat I must ask, uhm, what's "stick grappling?" <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Robert
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Re: Morning Stars & Maces Against Plate Armor

Postby JeffGentry » Fri Oct 28, 2005 7:11 pm

Hey Robert M.

The second part of my reply was to Robert Rolph not you, I should have made it clearer.


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Re: Morning Stars & Maces Against Plate Armor

Postby Robert Murphy » Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:46 am

Excuse me for living.

Jeff, in the future if you could just let me know exactly which parts of a given post of yours I can and can't comment on, I would really appreciate it.

Thanks,

Robert
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Re: Morning Stars & Maces Against Plate Armor

Postby Joachim Nilsson » Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:49 am

Robert Murphy wrote:
Uhm, being the world's premier expert on Medieval combat I must ask, uhm, what's "stick grappling?" <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />


That is when you use a small stick (est. roughly 1ft 5in when referring to Fiore) when dealing with an opponant in close quarters. The stick is used for hitting, thrusting and, most importantly, various trapping manuevers. Almost like modern law enforcement agencies employ their batons and nightsticks. Examples can be viewed here: http://www.varmouries.com/wildrose/fiore/section1.html (two bottom plates).
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Re: Morning Stars & Maces Against Plate Armor

Postby Robert Murphy » Tue Nov 01, 2005 7:02 pm

Hey thanks for the link and the feedback Joachim!

Er, but...

Would such a stick be a sort of secondary weapon a knight would resort to if things got ups close and personal? (I am assuming that we are talking about combat between two fully-armoured (in plate) combatants...)

Cheers,

Robert
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Re: Morning Stars & Maces Against Plate Armor

Postby Robert Murphy » Tue Nov 01, 2005 7:06 pm

Oh and Jeff--please disregard my hasty, pissy, earlier post. (As I see you have not replied to it, it (gratifyingly) seems you have anyway...)

Really, such a post was out of character for me; really, I'm normally not such a hypersensitive boob... <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

(Not that I think you have lost hours of sleep over this... <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

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