Morning Stars & Maces Against Plate Armor

[Joachim Nilsson]

Provided he had nothing else to fall back on: I guess so yeah.

Oh, and the Fiore-reference was done with fighting without armour in mind. Not that that excludes the possibility of resorting to the same thing when in armour but anyway. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[david welch]

Oh yes. Most definately. Look at the halfswording in Talhoffer's 1467 Ed. Then compare it to the poleaxe/pollaxe/pollhammer-plates from that same fechtbuch. Same movement patterns, same principles.

Yeah, pole weapons were used just like half sword. As a matter of fact, I take the bit from Le Jeu de la Hache:

And for this to be done, one must arm the body with good corporeal and material armour, and provide oneself with suitable weapons, like the axe, light lance, dagger, great sword and small sword, to defend oneself and resist one's corporeal and mortal enemies. And for this, let every man, noble of body and courage, naturally desire to exercise and make himself dexterous in virtuous and honourable occupation, and principally in the noble feat of arms, that is to say in Axe-play, from which proceed and depend several weapons above-named.

To mean that halfswording is axeplay. And if you can fight with a dagger that is 14-16 inches as leverage, and you see it done in Fiore like you said..., an 18-24 inch mace shouldn't be a problem.

But I would still like to see one used like that in a plate somewhere. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Would such a stick be a sort of secondary weapon a knight would resort to if things got ups close and personal? (I am assuming that we are talking about combat between two fully-armoured (in plate) combatants...)

I suspect that the stick was shown as a training tool, not something you would intend to actually fight with. But, put a weighted end on it, and that stick turns into one of the maces you are asking about.

[Ben Strickling]

Would such a stick be a sort of secondary weapon a knight would resort to if things got ups close and personal? (I am assuming that we are talking about combat between two fully-armoured (in plate) combatants...)

The small stick techniques always struck me as a kind of urban defense technique, the kind of thing you'd have to resort to if you were attacked and, for some reason, didn't happen to have a sword or knife handy. For that matter, were the small sticks the kind of things guys actually carried around or were they just a kind of make-shift weapon, a chair-leg or stick or something you could get your hands on really quickly?

[philippewillaume]

From what I understood masse were more used in the mail and transitional Armour than in the full plate period, when pole axes demi-axes demi-lance and war hammer not to forgot half swording were much more common.

For example Ringeck never used a blow with the balde when in armor (you deflect with the left arm and stick your point somewhere (if possible in the opening of the man in armor) and he is very restrictive about the blow with pommel or quillons. (muderstike for talhoffer). He gives a way to make is a really quick strike and tells us to target the head or the knee. But we need to bear in mind that Ringeck moto is more make sure that his point fall and yours strike.
So he is looking for the most efficient way of taking you opponent down. I think is attitude is akin to what I said about Armour and arrow, yes a plate piercing arrow my pierce an armour at close range, but why take the chance when you can aim at places that are much more likely to produce a wound.

And I think there is lot of that behind medieval thinking, as Shane said a sword strike and or a winged masse will damage plate in certain condition. A war hammer (I hammer and pick) just makes those conditions more certain.

Lots of the half-Swording is very closer to Jo work in aikido and speaking of uncle Sigmund, if you take the spear and the half sword you have a poll axe manual.

[Robert Murphy]

Quick query: the term 'half-swording' refers to a technique where one grasps the middle of the sword blade with the (doubtless gauntlet-clad) free hand, in order to gain greater precision in directing the point of the sword into a vulnerable spot of an opponent's armor, correct?

Cheers,

Robert

[Shane Smith]

Quick query: the term 'half-swording' refers to a technique where one grasps the middle of the sword blade with the (doubtless gauntlet-clad) free hand, in order to gain greater precision in directing the point of the sword into a vulnerable spot of an opponent's armor, correct?

Cheers,

Robert

Thats pretty much it. http://www.thearma.org/essays/armoredlongsword.html

[philippewillaume]

hello
For half swording you do not technically need a gauntlet to hold the blade, (but you need one so that you opponent do not chop your fingers off). So you have pieces when you half-sword when fighting un-armoured.
You can do it bare handed but it makes more sense to do it with a glove. (personally I am much less tense when I do test half swording trusting with gloves J)

I do not know if it gives more precision that holding the sword with both hands on the pommel. It thinks it mainly give you a better leverage and make it easier to follow with the body and to gain entrance.

I do not know what shane view on that but I really have tendency to end up a lot in the 4th guard (pommel under the arms, sword like a lance using the cross guard as a lance rest) when I actually thrust.