Sword Deffinitions

[Derek Bown]

I was in a thread discussing swords on another forum, and at one point decided to gather as many different deffinitions for swords as I could. Anyone care to look over them and tell me what I missed?

Arming Sword - This is a one handed sword, shorter than the longsword, double edged, that was used by knights before the longsword was developed. As it was the primary weapon of the knight it was mostly used from horseback. If used offsword it was used with either a shield or buckler, or a side weapon. This weapon was never used on its own.

Longsword - The basic european sword, a long, double edged, straight blade that could be used in one hand, if needed, but was primarily a two handed weapon, as most of the techniques for it involve the use of two hands.

Bastard Sword - Of similar length to the longsword, despite what most people think the bastard sword is not called so because it is a cross between a one handed sword and a two handed sword, it wields like a longsword, and is often incorectly called 'hand and a half sword'. The difference between a bastard sword and a longsword is the shape of the blade. The bastard sword was shaped like an elongated triangle, and was mainly used to pierce plate armor.

Greatsword - This term generally applies to any two handed sword bigger than a longsword. (At least that is what I think, someone correct me if I'm wrong.) A claymore is a good example of this. From what I've figured out a person's prefference between longsword and greatsword has nothing to do with strength and weight, but more with height, a taller person is more likely to use a greatsword. Someone could use a great sword if the were short and really wanted to, but in ARMA Provo the only two who use a claymore waster on a regular basis are Vaj and another guy (Who's name escapes me) and both are alot taller than me. I'm feeling really short and insignificant right now.

Landsknecht - This sword was used mainly by Swiss and German Mercenaries, it's even langer than the greatsword and featured an additional crosspiece on the blade to protect the hands when halfswording, a neccessary technique, considering the blade's length made close range fighting a little akward. Maybe not that much, but you'll have to admit that it's a little more akward at close range than a longsword. These swords were sometimes used to cut the heads off of pikes, and were invalluable in the period when the swiss mercenaries dominated the european battlefield. (I don't actually have a traceable reliable source for the pike head cutting thing, so don't take that as doctrine, it's just something I heard.) These swords sometimes had a wavy blade pattern, which was said to increase the cutting effectiveness. But latter it was discovered that it didn't actually make any difference, it just looked funky.

Rapier - This term reffers to a number of different types of swords. But generally they were long and slim bladed weapons that were only used for piercing, they had no cutting power. These weapons were primarily used for self deffence and dueling. It was possible to beat a longswordsman with one of these, mainly because of the excelent tip control, but that was generally if the longswordsman didn't know what you were doing. If he did then you had a problem. If you want your swordsman to be a duelist I'd suggest giving him a rapier (although that wouldn't be my personal choice), but if you want him to be more than that then I'd suggest a longsword or greatsword. Or you could just give him a longsword and a rapier, make him profficient in both weapons. That's what I'd do.

Cut and Thrust - Of the same breed of the rapier, only shorter and wider. Mainly a thrusting weapon, when compared to the longsword, but was much more effective than a rapier at cutting. Of the 'fencing' weapons it was the most versatile. When fighting a rapier the swordsman would emphasize the cutting capabilities of the cut and thrust, when fighting a longsword he would focus on thrusting.

Foil - Not a weapon, does not deserve to exist.

Grosses Messer - Litteraly translates from german to 'big knife'. A two handed peasant weapon, not actually a sword. Straight bladed, single edged, with a small edge at the tip of the blunt edge. Used by peasants because they were forbidden swords. As the grosses messer wasn't a sword, they could use them, but effectively they were as good as using a short sword. It's actually believed that the father of the german school of fencing, Liechtenauer, started out using this weapon, as he was only the son of a well off peasant. A very fun weapon to play around with.

Falchion - This weapon is actually a european sword, not a muslim (or people from that area). It was a weapon with single edge, a slight curve, and a heavy end. (Don't take my word for this, I haven't actually studied these.

Lightsaber - The mind product of George Lucas, not an actual weapon, despite what we all wish.

Katana - A japanese sword, I don't actually know to much about the varieties of katana. What I do know is that there's way too much hype about the katana out there. (Stupid Uma Thurman in Stupid Kill Bill, no sword, ever, ever, ever, could cut through another sword like that. And the human body does not have that much blood in it. A fully armored knight would have kicked all their butts. Actually I kind of like the Japanese Yakuza boss woman's comment. "So, the caucasian girl is playing at being a samurai?" Despite the fact she won, she would have won faster had she used a longsword. You're caucasion dangit, use a caucasian sword, a rapier at least. Sorry, I do like katana's, but for practical fighting I'll take my chances with a longsword. All you others can use katana's if you want, but I'd still win. )

Sabre - The sabre was a curved european weapon, used after the longsword fell into decline, it was these weapons that were used in war, not rapiers. Just a quick reminder, rapiers were never ever used in war. FI they were then the guy using it died very quickly.

Shashmir - A persian bladed weapon, the word shashmir actually means sword in persian. It had a curved blade and was used for slashing at unarmored oponents.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Scimitar_thin.png

Scimitar - A word that is used to define any mid eastern curved blade, nto actually a historic term, in the same way the term 'broadsword' isn't historic. The word scimitar is derived from the word 'shashmir'.

Kilij - Another sword often reffered to as a scimitar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Scimitar_large.png

Dao - A chinese sword shaped like a machete. These swords were used in 'The house of flying daggers', which I watched, despite the fact it turned out to be mega crappy.

Longsword of Moron Slaying +3 - What I'll use on anyone who dares disagree with me. (JK) X)

[Allen Johnson]

Actually, "broadsword" is a historical term- used in the 17th to 19th cent. The only weapon that can be truly called a "broadsword" is the scottish baskethilt. Cant tell you how many times Ive seen that one messed up.

For that matter you may as well add that the basket hilt is the only weapon that can truly be called a "Claymore" and the scottish two hander should only be called "scottish two-handed sword" or "claidheamh da laimh".

[SzabolcsWaldmann]

...As far as I know, the Arming sword existed well into the 16th century, as a sword for horse-warfare. At least, that's what I've senn in the museum in Graz, Austria.
I never heard a Two-hander been called 'Landsknecht'. The word itself refers to the men who were using it, meaning Servants of the Land. The Historical term would be Bidenhander, Beidenhänder, Zweihänder. And it does not cut off heads of pikes, but uses the smaller crosspiece (parierstange) to actually deflect or trap them, to step in for a giant Zornhau. (cutting off the head of a pole weapon would actually not stop it from doing harm and being nasty, so it makes not so much sense actually)
There are a lot of other swords. Alone in India, there are a dozen different forms (like the Pata)(check out this link! Scroll well dodn! http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/indianarms.htm ). There is the Bagua; the Chineese War-sword (looks similar to a grosse messer); hungarian Saber (half of the back-side is sharp as well), Dusack (not the one meant for training but the actual weapon); the turkish Khanjar.... and so on.

For Messer, the following applies.
All Messers are one-edged weapons of war, and not exactly peasant weapons. They are "sabers" for Europe. In cutting power, they can easily shear through lesser armours, and are extremelly dangerous. Almost all tipes have straight crosspiece, like a Longsword.

Messer: being the smallest in the family, it's an equivalent of a gladius or really-short sword.

Lange Messer: Being longer, slimmer, but still one-handed, it could be used with a secondary weapon or shield. The most common on the battlefield.

Grosse Messer: (spelled Grousae Messer, meaning Big Knife) in it's family, it's the Equivalent for a Longsword. Can be, and must be, used with two hands most of the time, for it's heavy and slow otherwise. It's a mighty cutting weapon. As far as I was told, it was one of the basic weapons for armoured foot troops, and formations equipped fith these would be sent on targets with lesser armour (like peasants, or cheap man-at-arms), where a troop with longswords or whatever were not necessary.

Kriegsmesser: (Warknife) Now, this one was meant for business. It's a two-hander, extremelly big weapon (here's a pic: http://www.dreynschlag.at/fotos/galerie/2005/reutte/33.jpg , The guy in the middle is carrying one). Like the Bidenhander, it must be wielded in it's own unique way. Not that common. Two examples are shown in Vienna, one in Graz, and that's all I've seen so far live.


Byez,

Szab

[Derek Bown]

Who, that messer looks nasty. Kinda reminds me of those elven swords in LotR, probably where they got the idea from.

[Mike_McGurk]

"Sorry, I do like katana's, but for practical fighting I'll take my chances with a longsword. All you others can use katana's if you want, but I'd still win."

I regularly spar against the katana, and fully respect all forms of true weapons. It seems that that you may be falling into the trap that many practitioners of EMA, that is, you seem to view your own weapon and martial art of choice to be superior to others. That trap is to be avoided by every student of the sword. The katana is just as efficient at what it does as the longsword is: ending life. The major difference is that the katana is geared more towards slices and draw-cuts and has a greater variety of them, while the longsword has less of a variety of cuts but makes up for it with trapping and a variety of other techniques.

[Bill Welch]

SzabolcsWaldmann wrote,

"For Messer, the following applies.
All Messers are one-edged weapons of war,...."

There are bunches of technique that use the short edge of the weapon, much the same as in longsword.

[JeanryChandler]

I respect the Kataana too, but lets be realistic

I regularly spar against the katana, and fully respect all forms of true weapons. It seems that that you may be falling into the trap that many practitioners of EMA, that is, you seem to view your own weapon and martial art of choice to be superior to others. That trap is to be avoided by every student of the sword. The katana is just as efficient at what it does as the longsword is: ending life. The major difference is that the katana is geared more towards slices and draw-cuts and has a greater variety of them, while the longsword has less of a variety of cuts but makes up for it with trapping and a variety of other techniques.

Actually, I could think of some other pretty major differences:

1) the Longsword is going to typically be around 6-10" longer, conveying a significant reach advantage
2) with it's heavy pommel and distal taper, the Longsword has a closer to the hilt center of balance making it arguably nimbler in handling, which ties into the fact that
3) the Longsword is two edged, allowing for a whole slew of false edge cuts, twitch cuts etc. which vastly enhance it's counterstriking ability.
4) the Longsword has significant hand protection in the form of the cross, (and often other pieces such as siderings etc.) which protect the hands and allow for yet more special techniques, such as for disarmings and winding.
5) the Longsword is vastly more suitible for thrusting, making it potentially more effective against armored targets in particular.
6) with halfswording techniques, the cross and the pommel are quite effective weapons in their own right
7) many longswords have a heavy ricasso, and generally are stronger blades particularly in the forte, making them more effective in active defense (displacements, parries, beats, binds, set-asides, etc.)


Subjectively (and I grant, this is largely my personal opinion) the longsword has better reach due to it's length, it's better close-in due to the numerous false edge options and livelier balance, has a wider range of effective attack options (chop, cut, slash, thrust, bash), is more potentially useful against armored targets, and is also generally better defensively.


Jeanry

[JeanryChandler]

Landsknecht - This sword was used mainly by Swiss and German Mercenaries

A Landsknecht is not a sword (except according to some replica companies perhaps), it was a person, specifically an elite type of German mercenary, originally founded in the 15th?) century by a German Emperor (Maximillian 1?) to copy the extremely effective militia of the Helvetic Confederacy, what is now Switzerland, who were also called Reislauffer (sp?).

The Reislauffer and Lansknechts both used a variety of weapons, primarily pikes, halberds, crossbows, primitive handguns (arquebus), and small cannon. They also carried bastard swords and short swords (baselard) as sidearms. Some elite shock troops among them who were called "Dopplesolnders" because they recieved double pay, carried very large greatswords which have been called "Zweihander", "Dopplehander", and for some wavy bladed varieities "Flamberge" (an incorrect term according to John Clements), "Flambard" or "Flammard" and numerous other terms. This is probably the weapon you are referring to, the six foot sword with the lugs above the ricasso, and the very long grips. Despite their clumsy appearance they proved effective on the battlefield and gained some popularity as weapons.

The (mostly German) Landsknechts had one weapon which differed from the (Swiss) Reislauffer, a special sidearm called a Katzbalger: a medium length cutting sword with a unique "S" shaped or figure 8 shaped guard. The Katzbalger is probably the closest thing to a Landsknecht sword.

Next to their bitter rivals the Swiss Reislauffer, who they were never able to defeat, the Landsknechts were supposed to be the best infantry in Europe for about 100 years. THey were very interesting in that they were allowed to basically have their own little governments, laws, courts and everything within each Lansknecht mercenary company, in emulation of the anarchistic Swiss.

There are some great Osprey military books on these various Mercenaries, I used to own two of them but Katrina turned them into toilet paper <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" />

Jeanry

[Mike_McGurk]

I wasn't trying to force similarities, but was simply stating that both weapons are formidable tools. As for hand protection, the tsuba does a good job of protecting the hand. From experience, when my longsword strikes the tsuba on my friend's bokken it bounces over his hands or skims the knuckle with the flat. I agree that the longsword is a superior thrusting implement as thrusting with the katana is limited and often requires a somewhat complex twisting motion. When I said a variety of other techniques, I was referring to false edge strikes, halbschwert, grappling, weapon taking, binding, winding, etc. It is also certainly better close up. However I would also recommend reading John Clements article on the Knight v. the Samurai, http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm.

[JeanryChandler]

However I would also recommend reading John Clements article on the Knight v. the Samurai, http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm.

Not to be a smart ass, but you might be interested to read my comments on the article in this forum, John apparently felt they were on point at that time.

<img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

JR