Fighting terminology

[JeanryChandler]

Is there a term, either modern or in Renaissance Italian or German (or any other language) for the act of seizing an opponents weapon with the off-hand or otherwise, particularly when fighting against spears, pole-arms or other hafted weapons?

Jeanry

[Mike Cartier]

Meyer mentions Uber Greifen several times.

Ubergreiffen

Ubergreiffen ist also, Hauw von deiner Rechten zu seiner Obern Lincken Blöß, im Hauw aber greiff mit den Fingern uber das kreuz oder Schilt herauß, jedoch so behalt den Daumen an dem Hefft, unod? mit der Lincken Handt erheb den Knopff, und schlag in mit hangeter Klingen uber oder hinder seiner versatzung auff den Kopff.

Overgripping

Overgripping is thus: Strike from your right to his upper left opening, however in the strike grip with the fingers out over the cross or hilt while holding the thumb on the haft, then with the left hand raise the pommel and slash in with hanging blade over or behind his displacement to the head.

He is refering of course to how one grips ones own blade here, but he also describes it for this technique. (upper right figures)

Something we called the Roof or shield in Kali/Escrima.
This is a controling or gripping technique I think was used to imobilize the opponents weapon so you could get your strike in. It could also be done deeper as a disarm something we called the snake in Kali/Escrima.

So I use over gripping to refer to my own gripping over my quillons and my gripping over my own weapon to grasp the opponents quillons or hilt.

[JeanryChandler]

Very interesting mike, so would you use this same terminology when say, grabbing a spear shaft from a bind and holding it while you rush in?


JR

[M Wallgren]

Talhoffer call it Scwertniemen (sp?, witch is Take/Steal the Sword. I think I recall a reference to a Niemen of a dagger to in Codex Wallerstein. But I could be wrong!

Martin

[JeanryChandler]

aha... interesting... what would the word for spear be then?

[Mike Cartier]

Very interesting mike, so would you use this same terminology when say, grabbing a spear shaft from a bind and holding it while you rush in?

Yes, more generally I think that the act of holding the opponents weapon would be called gripping, grasping over your weapon to grab his is over gripping.

I divide Meyer's actions on the sword in to 3 parts
disarm/stripping (the act of attemtpingto disarm)
Gripping/Over gripping (the act of gripping to immobilize)
Halfswording/Winden and Binden (working the krieg phase)

[JeffGentry]

Hey Gent's

Overgripping is thus: Strike from your right to his upper left opening, however in the strike grip with the fingers out over the cross or hilt while holding the thumb on the haft, then with the left hand raise the pommel and slash in with hanging blade over or behind his displacement to the head.

I don't think this has to do with grabbing someone else's weapon, it is how to grip your sword, when i saw this in the Meyer text i did try it flouryishing and it realy increase's one handed control of a longsword it is like fingering the ricasso on a thrusting sword, I am pretty sure that is what is meant by Meyer telling us this in his text not refering to grabbing someone else's weapon.


Martin plate 62 of Talhoffer the caption is "Aber ain schwert niemen" or "another sword capture.", I vaguely remmeber the reference in Wallerstein and cannot find it at the moment, so to capture someone's weapon would be "Niemen" as far as i can tell.

So if you put the german word for spear in front of it that would be spear capture.

Jeff

[Mike Cartier]

I don't think this has to do with grabbing someone else's weapon, it is how to grip your sword

Not it doesn't , thats the handwork description of Over gripping. However i think meyer uses the term when describing another technique in the devices section which i showed in the pic.

Also Meyer says many times about many of his concepts instructed that these are being clarified in one way but are meant to be applied in other ways as we expand our art.
He is like a little German Bruce Lee <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[JeffGentry]

Hey Mike

However i think meyer uses the term when describing another technique in the devices section which i showed in the pic.

Yes you are right i thought that was what the picture was, i was being lazy and didn't feel like going to look for it, i should have stated that.

I don't know Meyer as well as i did last winter, and sometime's it take's me awhile to find thing's.


Jeff

[M Wallgren]

hey Jeff!

Right. (Aber ain... would more likely translate "this is" than another though) <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks!

[John_Clements]

Silver of course referred to "grypes and siezures".