Insights from Art

[John_Clements]

Here are just a few of some intriguing images from a German literary work, “Sigenot”, from the 1470s, based on much older heroic epic tales. It's interesting to note the similarities between stances and techniques in the Fechtbuchs of the same time period and region.

Although it’s a fictional tale about fighting a giant and a hairy beast man, the illustrations reflects tale guards (Nebenhut), as well as Pflug, possibly Kron, Wechsel, Vom Dach, etc. There are several very interesting things such as, the longsword vs shield, the use of two branches (as in Fiore’s text), an attempt to close and grapple, and small shields. The final lower right also seems a familiar parry. The various grip and foot positions are also interesting.

JC

[Richard Strey]

A member of our group, who takes an interest in drawing and anatomy, mentioned something interesting about Dürer's Fechtbuch the other day. He says the way the drawings display different muscles being tense or relaxed actually tell a lot about how the technique is meant to be performed. Makes sense to me. Any thoughts?

[John_Clements]

Sounds logical. I always thought Duerer showed a definite realism to his drawings. What did your friend say?

JC

[GaryGrzybek]

Hi John,

I noticed in several images that the rear foot is turned outward and back especially in Nebenhut. I recall our demonstration in NYC showing it's use for stability reasons while pressing in but for Nebenhut it seems to have a different fuction. I find it more comfortable anyway. I can't help but think of Meyer here.

Any insight on this?

[Joachim Nilsson]

Wow! This is great! <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I find medieval art extremely fascinating. Especially for the "training-value", but also because of the insights it has to offer.

Does anyone know of any artbooks concerning the medieval times? I have been trying to find books on the subject, but have been found wanting... Also, the ARMA "art-talk"-page doesn't seem to work. or has it simply been moved to the members only section?

Speaking on the subject of art: The other day I took some time to go and visit the old local medieval church, a beautiful stone building from the late 15th century. It's filled with biblical artwork dated to ca 1580. I went there hoping to do some good rescearch in the vein of Oakeshott <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> , but initially I was quite dissappointed siince I did not find any imagery of soldiers or weapons. Until I went up to the balcony that is. There, hidden away behind a pillar I found an image of Jesus and two of his apostels (terminology?). Standing behind Jesus ere a couple of soldiers dressed in "half-armour" with open helmets and carrying spears (or pikes) contemporary of the 1580s. I didn't scrutinize the details though, but will do at a later date. At another wall in the church I also found a very porly preserved image of someone wielding what seemed to be a messer/falchion with what I think is a type T1 pommel! I'm gonna pursue this some more and visit more churches in the area because I think it gives some insights into the local armor and weapons of the era. Just wanted to share this information because I found it interesting. Don't know if anyone else does though... <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" /> But I hope so.

Hmm.... I am being boring and rambling again aren't I...? <img src="/forum/images/icons/blush.gif" alt="" />

[JeanryChandler]

That is an interesting type of shield they are weilding in these pictures, it looks like a painters pallete. Does anyone know what that is called?

[JeanryChandler]

Also, what kind of armor is that the big guy is wearing? It looke like a hauberk made of large overlapping plates, and I'm assuming from the color maybe leather, possibly curi-boulli? Anyone else have any insight into this? Fascinating.

[John_Clements]

Re the feet positions, Gary, it could very well be as I showed in NY or it may just be the style of the artist in trying to show perspective. Hard to say.

JC

[John_Clements]

Becuase of the heroic epic nature of the material, I'd say not to read too much into the artists depiction of armor. They tended toward the more fanciful when dealing with this subject.

JC

[JeanryChandler]

Have you seen the armor paintings on this site:

Introduction
http://www.cs.usu.edu/~watson/bartholomew/

These images are supposed to be from post-cards which were painted in the late 19th century. There are about 40 or 50 images, almost all of armored knights. I found them to be very accurate based on what I knew, and interestingly, more varied and unique within the appropriate range for each different era. Modern interpretations of armor (especially in American films) tend to be more uniform, we always forget that everything done in those days was made by hand. The reality is that uniformity is very rare. This contributes to an interestnig cirque du soleil meets road warrior feel to this equipment which I find very compelling and interesting. Curious what y'all thought about it (especially John)

[Jay Vail]

Beautiful. Notice how high they hold the single sword in von tach with the shield. (and see p. 114 of JC's book Medieval Swordsmanship) I have a photo of a figurine of a Roman soldier in a posture very similar to that.

[Fabrice Cognot]

hm sorry to disappoint you but these postcards, as interesting as they may be for someone studying 19th century depictions of the Medieval era, are far from accurate (or maybe I'm being too demanding <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />)...they're as accurate as, say, Viollet-le-Duc's pictures (which are alas still at the time being considered by too many people as a valid source).
see for instance the pic of Du Guesclin http://www.cs.usu.edu/~watson/bartholomew/frenchArmor/4h.jpg ...the longsword he's holding is clearly 15th century. a nice sword, but a total anachronism. (besides, an Aotrou Gwezklen, as he's called in Brittany, wasn't the typical image of the tall, handsome knight...he was rather a short, homely, brutish warrior..)

Fab