Who are these sword instructors on movie sets?

[Ben Way]

Essentially, they are actor-stuntmen who enjoy fencing and martial arts and entertaining performance. They are self-taught and self-certified from within their own self-referential community that essentially acts as a guild and, because film producers and directors really don't know any better, have a monopoly lock on the profession.

Thats interesting, thanks for the info guys

[Jaron Bernstein]

I rented the DVD movie The Hunted, which has what I am informed is authentic Kali knife and empty hand work. On the "making of" section, they showed the guys who handled the fight parts. What I found most interesting is that they were NOT stage combat guild guys (to my knowledge) but actual Kali instructors who trained the actors for their (fighting) parts. I guess I am envisioning (for an appropriate film of course) replacing those guys with an ARMA instructor. Monopolies only last until they are broken.

[JeanryChandler]

I thought that movie was pretty funny when Benicio Del Toro forged a knife from scrap metal in an open fire he made from moist driftwood in what looked like about 20 minutes.

Man if only it were that easy I wouldn't have to save up for three years to buy that nice Albion I've been hankerin' after!

Also, the leap from the top of that bridge was pretty amazing.

The knife fighting looked fairly good though, even if there were a couple of times Benicio seems like he could have thrust when he cut instead....

JR

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hi Jeanry,

My only point is that the knife and unarmed stuff was NOT done by some lame fake stage combat guild guy. It was run by real life Kali instructors. While that was an appropriate art for this film, if they can get a real Kali teacher to do their fights and not the stage combat bozos, then why can't films that would have logically have RMA for their fights (Kingdom of Heaven, Lord Of the Rings, etc.) get some real RMA guys to choreograph it?

[JeanryChandler]

Oh I agree, I've been advocating this sort of thing for a long time. I think WMA / RMA looks ten times more impressive than that wierd kungfu / erol flynn / conan amalgum they do now.

I still wish I could forge a sword on a campfire though. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

JR

[Brian Hunt]

Get yourself a primitive bag bellows with a tuyre (hollow pipe, hollow log), and turn your camp fire into a primative forge. You can now forge a sword in your campfire, especially if you use hard wood and get a really good bed of coals going. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Brian Hunt
GFS

http://www.survival.com/forge.htm
http://www.wwmag.net/blacksmith.htm

these are just a couple of ways to do it.

[M Wallgren]

The elves of Rivendell reforge Narsil into Anduril in a bonfire almost in the Return of the King! Ask Peter Johnsson on the durability of that IRL!

[Brian Hunt]

Of course the Elves have the advantage of Magic. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Allen Johnson]

as if we needed any more convincing...
I just recently picked up a copy of William Hobbs "Fight Direction for Stage and Screen". Despite the fact that he is virtually the only known fight choreographer I have an ounce of respect for, the misconceptions and such reign even with the best of the "professionals" in the upper levels of the industry.
pg 68
"With all parries use the outside edge of the blade to meet the attack, and never the flat. Edge should meet edge."
(sigh) not suprising really. He gives no reason for this - just his word. And I think thats why things are as they are. Someone who is viewed as an authority makes a statement on something they havent researched and the misconception grows.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Maybe this is due to the nature of his profession- the fact that they are interested in it being safe for the actors and above all else looking cool, and keeping interest etc... I think that the historically accurate techniques look so much cooler, I wonder why they have not wanted to emulate what we do here....(actually I allready know why, as we have covered these areas before) ..seriously if there were a smart director out there he would contract with our group, and get some seriously outstanding fight scenes-

[Allen Johnson]

Safety is a big issue but you have to be just as safe with a silly twirlly edge on edge strike as you do with the most accurate Krumphau- so I really dont think historical accuracy stands in the way of safety. Another issue is that once someone is considered a "master" or "expert" they frequently cling to this title and stop learning. Any new opinion is rubbish cause they are the "expert" and didnt think of it. There are groups like the Society for American Fight Directors (SAFD) who charge huge sums of money for people to come to a camp and learn nothing but a flury of 4 cuts and dui tempo parries with floppy eepe blades. Then you are "certified". They even "certify" fight directors this way. Their extent of historical research stems about as far back as Alfred Hutton- maybe really archaic sources like Domenico Angelo. Once they flip through those they are "masters" at that stuff too. The problem is getting someone who is in a position of power and status to recognize someone who isnt in that status.

[david welch]

"With all parries use the outside edge of the blade to meet the attack, and never the flat. Edge should meet edge."
(sigh) not suprising really. He gives no reason for this - just his word. And I think thats why things are as they are. Someone who is viewed as an authority makes a statement on something they havent researched and the misconception grows.

Because they don't care about killing the other guy like we do.

What they do care about is how it looks. When you strike edge to edge, both swords are in profile to the audience so that they can see them. If you do an edge to flat, a lot of the time the audience is looking at the edge of one of the swords and won't be able to follow the action.

Our way is for killing, their way is so people can watch.

[Justin Lompado]

What about the Last Samurai? Tom Cruise is a Kenjutsu master in like 4 months!!!

And, if you have the DVD, watch the extra features. Of particular interest is when during one interview Cruise makes the usual comments on katanas; and you just want to yell at the TV. Then they describe the fight scenes, and say that he was actually given basic martial arts training so he would act better. He basically say: "I could feel the mind controlling the body" or something like that. Its great. Bottom line: All the fights in that movie, (which seems to show Japan at the time fairly well but im no expert) are FAKE!

[Jeremy Martin]

I would hope they were fake....Unless Cruise died in one of them. Then I'd hope it was real. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

To play devil's advocate here I'll say that Cruise's character had previous sword experince. With a sabre in particular, which is like a katana. Not just training, but presumably a good bit of combat experince with the sabre. And of course he had general combat experince as well.

Of course the sabre is -obviously- far inferior to the katana as can be seen as he gets beat down with a wooden one right after playing swordsies with the kid. Like duh western man. You no beat samurai(who were all master swordsmen, duh again) with inferior western sword-play!

Personally, I found far more disturbing how easily Cruise was accepted by the chief. Just between you and me, I think white man would have been chop suey. Of course, the way Cruise was the -only- survivor(on his side) of the entire battle was a hell of a coincidence too. Maybe the movie's goal was to show-off what the luckiest man in the world looked like. Now we know. And knowing is half the battle.

But I loved the ninja attack. That was cool.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

haa, funny post- the best part is in the begining he is able to beat like 20 samauri with his saber, in the first battle scene when they first take him down, I think he hits like three of them in the face with the hilt and cuts several more, but then when facing the master later on he sucks-hmmmmmm