Joachim Meyer Figure F

[Bill Welch]

Jaron,
Looks like it to me also. Are we sure that its not the guy defending with the grip, as much as one striking the other guy in the hands?

[Jaron Bernstein]

The text says:

Kniechelhauw

Dieser hat den Namen von dem Gliedt, nach welchem er gerichtet wirdt, den vollend also, wann du mit deinen henden hoch uber den Kopff nach dem ersten angriff, deinem gegenfechter under sein Schwerdt kommen bist, und seinen Kopff also zwischen beiden Armen heltet, so Hauw mit den Zwirchhäuwen under seines Schwerts Knopff, ubersich nach seinen Kniecheln, oder zu den gelencken zwischen seiner Hand und Arm, helt er die hendt gar zu hoch, so Hauw mit obgemelten Zwirchhäuwen von Unden auff nach dem knöpfflein bey den Elenbogen, so ist er gemacht.

Knuckle Strike

This strike takes its name from the joint against which it is tried, and is completed thus: when at first you hold your hands high above your head, and your opponent is moving under his sword so his head is held between both arms, then strike with a traversing strike under his sword's pommel, with a view to his knuckles or to the joints between hand and arm. If he holds his hands much too high, then strike with a rising traverse Strike from below up against the knob of his elbows, thus is it completed.

I am thinking that the right dude on the F figure is doing a rising zwerch (is it still a zwerch if it rises?) after the guy on the left kept his arms too high for too long. Maybe the left dude was just reacting at the last moment by trying to drop his hands. I don't know for sure as those particular figures aren't to my knowledge referenced in the text. It just seems that the text fits the picture best out all available in the Rasmussen translation.

[Matt_Bruskotter]

That's a good explanation. Are all the figures mentioned in the text somewhere or are only a few represented? I've read the whole longsword version but I never tried to compare all the figures, just the ones to which Meyer explicitly refers.

The small difference in the two pictures on this thread or that in the picture given my Mr. Clements the left figure is stepping with his right and the cut is coming from his right. How to step and cut on the same side is explained in many other fight books. In the Meyer picture, it looks as if he is stepping with his left and cutting from the right and this confused me. Is this another "action shot" when he is continuing to step after the cut landed or is be back pedaling?

[Jaron Bernstein]

"That's a good explanation. Are all the figures mentioned in the text somewhere or are only a few represented? I've read the whole longsword version but I never tried to compare all the figures, just the ones to which Meyer explicitly refers."

That is the fun part. Some of the figures are specifically referenced in the text, some aren't. What I found useful was to print out all the woodcuts in one separate stack and then read though the text. Where the text specifically lists a picture, note that on the picture. Then re-read the text comparing the described techniques that don't have a figure with the remaining pictures and see what matches best.

"The small difference in the two pictures on this thread or that in the picture given my Mr. Clements the left figure is stepping with his right and the cut is coming from his right. How to step and cut on the same side is explained in many other fight books. In the Meyer picture, it looks as if he is stepping with his left and cutting from the right and this confused me. Is this another "action shot" when he is continuing to step after the cut landed or is be back pedaling?"

Beats me. Try to recreate it with Corey and see what you come up with. IMO (after walking through it with my imaginary opponent) it is a mid-technique snapshot, just as most of the other ones (guards aside) are.

[Mike Cartier]

is it still a zwerch if it rises?)

I think so if you look at the schielhau translation it even mentions the zwerch as coming somewhat from below.

Thwart<br>You send yourself into the Thwarter thus: assume the primary stance of Wrathful Guard to the right (as shown in the previous chapter), that is you put your left foot forward and hold your sword over your right shoulder, as if you would strike a wrathful strike, and when your opponent strikes you from the roof or above, strike closely with your short edge, breaking against his strike from below, holding your hilt high above to displace near your head, and strike to close by stepping full onto his Left side, thus displacing and closing against the other as shown by the left background figures of illustration H. This can be executed to the left thus striking his right side with a changed point, in that you will strike against his right by engaging with the long edge.

[david welch]

In the recent past, I remember reading in "a" fightbook about hand strikes: (paraphrase) "strike the hands, but for play and practice, strike the hilt between the hands." I wonder if this is what is going on here? Unfortunately I don't remember the source.

[Jaron Bernstein]

That takes some impressive aim to hit the handle but not the hands! I usually aim for the wrist and sometimes even get it.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

hmmm... That's interesting and would make some sense, does anyone know of a refrence talking about any kind of padding or protection? I think there was a mention about gloves or gauntlets somewhere in one of the books I have, I'll have to dig through it, but I have never seen gloves on any of the drawings/woodcuts?

[Mike Cartier]

no i have never seen any padded gear in any artwork but I beleive Amberger makes some mention of padded stuff of some sort in one of his articles (the fechtschule one i think).

[Jake_Norwood]

Guys,

Good theories all, but the execution of that maneuver is in the text. In fact, it is Meyer's most overt "edge parry," where he says to catch the opponent's blade on the edge of your starck (of course!) and then strike with a winding, etc. The position is like hangen, but the point slopes the "wrong" way.

Sorry I can't site the paragaraph, etc. It's in the portion un-translated by Rassmussen and I'm not in a position (Iraq and all) to look it up.

Jake

[Mike Cartier]

That sounds alot like one of the devices from Wrath guard. Or at least it is very similar, except that the flat is used rather than the edge.

[GaryGrzybek]

Cool, I do this a lot but never realized where it came from. I suppose because it's seems very natural?

[Matt Bryant]

It looks like the Knuckle Strike to me.