What is the Definition of a bastard sword?

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Eli Gionet
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What is the Definition of a bastard sword?

Postby Eli Gionet » Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:07 pm

Hello everyone,
I'll keep this simple. I collect swords whenever I can, and used to be a huge fan of the katana. But after reading some incredible books and doing some research, I have come to really appreciate the bastard sword.
However, the more I look around and ask people, the more confused I am getting about what exactly the bastard sword is, by the standard def.
I thought it was a hand-and-half sword, or a shorter version of the long sword. But some people say I am mistaken.
What I am looking for, I suppose, are specs (blade length, handle length, blade width) characteristics, and maybe a picture or two showing me a real bastard sword.
Basically I would just like to know if a bastard sword is the same as the hand and halfer, or is it a different class all together, same with it being same as a long sword.
Thank you.

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Mike Chidester
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Re: What is the Definition of a bastard sword?

Postby Mike Chidester » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:57 pm

A bastard sword is a subtype of longsword. It is characterized by a tapered (triangular) blade, and often-times a bottle-shaped hilt. Bastards swords are balanced differently from a standard longsword, which makes them more agile in thrusting. The blade profile also allows for better thrusts. It is roughly the same size and weight as a longsword, so around 48" and 3 lbs.

The term "hand and a half" is really quite meaningless, since it was not uncommon for arming swords (1-handed swords) to be used two-handed at times, and most longswords can be used one-handed if necessary (though I wouldn't recomend it).
Michael Chidester
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s_taillebois
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Re: What is the Definition of a bastard sword?

Postby s_taillebois » Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:58 pm

And in very common use by about 1400. Often a civilian weapon as much as a battlefield weapon.
Steven Taillebois

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Ben Strickling
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Re: What is the Definition of a bastard sword?

Postby Ben Strickling » Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:38 pm

A bastard sword is a subtype of longsword. It is characterized by a tapered (triangular) blade, and often-times a bottle-shaped hilt. Bastards swords are balanced differently from a standard longsword, which makes them more agile in thrusting. The blade profile also allows for better thrusts. It is roughly the same size and weight as a longsword, so around 48" and 3 lbs.


Thanks for the description, Mike. That really clears it up for me, too -- something I've been wondering about for a while.

Also though, is it possible to equate the term Bastard Sword with any (or several) of Oakeshott's typologies? Type XVIIIa perhaps? Does anyone know?
Ben Strickling

Eli Gionet
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Re: What is the Definition of a bastard sword?

Postby Eli Gionet » Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:24 am

Thanks for the info, but it leads to more questions.
Do all bastard sword need to have a triangular blade to be called a bastard sword? The one sword i am really looking to purchase is the Del Tin Gothic bastard sword.

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Brian Hunt
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Re: What is the Definition of a bastard sword?

Postby Brian Hunt » Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:14 am

Hi Eli,

when he says a trianglular blade he is referring to the profile, not the cross section. Meaning that a bastard sword has non-parallel edges that taper down in width towards the point, as oppossed to other massive cutters that have fairly parallel edges. Most bastard swords I have seen have a variation of a diamond cross section.

hope that helps.

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Eli Gionet
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Re: What is the Definition of a bastard sword?

Postby Eli Gionet » Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:15 pm

Yes, that what I meant when i was asking, do all bastard swords need to have the triangular profile to be called a bastard sword?
For instance, how about the MacLeod sword from the first Highlander movie.
Image
that one seems to have a slight triangular shape to its profile. does that alone make it a bastard sword?
What about the Ibelin sword from Kingdom of Heaven, is that a bastard sword as well?
Image
Love both of those and would like to know, even though i should be purchasing real swords and not movie reps (sheepish laughter)
And finally, the famed Gothic Bastard sword.
Image
Sorry if I am sounding like a broken record, but its a confusing topic for me.

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Mike Chidester
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Re: What is the Definition of a bastard sword?

Postby Mike Chidester » Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:40 pm

1) Hollywood weapons tend to defy classification, since they're based on imagination rather than reality. It looks kind of like a bastard sword.

2) No. That's a longsword

3) Yes.

They don't necessarily need a perfectly triangular blade, but the blade is much more sharply tapered than on a standard longsword.
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Eli Gionet
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Re: What is the Definition of a bastard sword?

Postby Eli Gionet » Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:41 am

Ok, that clears things up for me, thanks

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Allen Johnson
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Re: What is the Definition of a bastard sword?

Postby Allen Johnson » Thu Dec 01, 2005 7:59 am

The biggest thing to keep in mind is that only recently have people really cared about classification. Back in the day nobody was concerned about typology or if their new sword idea fit into a set of deffinitions. So when talking about sword types there will always be grey areas.
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John_Clements
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Re: What is the Definition of a bastard sword?

Postby John_Clements » Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:22 am

Well, this has been one of my favorite topics of research. Oakeshott relied on a 16th century French source that described it as neither a long nor a short sword, but in between, and this was also the definition given by a 1611 dictionary as well as by the fencing master Joseph Swetnam in his 1617 treatise (though, we should remember these swords were no longer really in use by that time). One early 16th century judicial account even noted they had short and thick blades. I once believed it referred more to those 16th century swords with specialized compound hilts and half-handles. But, as I was once able to discuss with Oakeshott, I discovered an English will from the year 1418 that specifically gave a description based not on length at all but on blade shape, that being a tapering and acutely pointed one (as opposed to the more common parallel-edged sword with rounder point). This makes sense in that the bastard sword was a newer design (generally thicker and stiffer useable by either one or two-hands) that appears suddenly in the 14th century in response to heavier armors. The name also has equivalents in other languages for this same type of unique blade shape. The word “bastard” interestingly itself once also referred to things out of the ordinary or of unusual shape or size—thus, differing from more traditional sword shapes. In my opinion a bastard-sword, like a longsword or short sword, can be of various lengths and widths and that it was the shape overall which defined it. Even this definition of a bastard-sword as being a blade for one or two hands is itself vague since it says nothing about blade shape, and we must wonder just how fighting men distinguished between their various swords types by name, since both tapering and non-tapering styles ranged in lengths and all were in wide use during the same period. As more and more swords became slender and tapering, I think the term eventually fell out of common use (also, as the later Victorians likely did not like saying the word “bastard” they apparently started to call them “hand and a half” swords, hence that term). One thing is clear though, those swords called by this term, or by “espee’ bastarde,” “spadone,” or “espadon,” all appear to be tapering blades.

All this and more will be in my book on Renaissance swords sometime in late 2006.

JC
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JeanryChandler
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Re: What is the Definition of a bastard sword?

Postby JeanryChandler » Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:38 pm

I've tried for a long time to suss this out as well, I think the ARMA site has been one of the most lucid sources on this issue. When I was working on the weapons encyclopedia for Jake's RPG game 'The Riddle of Steel, I was forced to t ry to define the basic different subtypes of hand and a half swords. Using the Oakeshotte typology as a guideline, I identified the bastard swords as type XVa, type XVIIIb and VIIIc... sharply tapering, stiff blades theoretically designed for thrusting. These also seem just a few inches shorter than many of the other hand and a half types.

type XVIa, XVII and XVIIIb I listed as intermediate 'longsword' types, since they have either gently tapering, or parallel and then tapering blades of moderate stiffness, suitible for both cutting and thrusting.

XII, XIIIa, XX and XXa I classified as 'greatswords' due to their broad, parallel cutting- oriented, relatively flexible blade shape.

[Edit: I should point out this is pretty much just idle speculation, for the benefit of the game, I'm not trying to invent my own typology here or anything!]

Surprisingly, though this is by no means scientific, I noticed with interest that of the 20 or so swords we cut with last time we visited Aaron Schaterlys (sp) place, the tapering basard-type swords (Brescia Spadona and the Mercnary (a truly dainty weapon at 42" with a needle point) seemed to be the best cutters.

There is also the term warsword or sword or war.
JR
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Rod-Thornton
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Re: What is the Definition of a bastard sword?

Postby Rod-Thornton » Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:44 pm

Hey Mike...

What you said is generally true...
>"...1) Hollywood weapons tend to defy classification, since they're based on imagination rather than reality...."

However, I peeked at MRL's "hollywood line" and actually found a little reality over imagination in their kingdom of heaven line, after reading this.

After reading this, go check out their online catalogue...then open up Oakeshotts RECORDS OF THE MEDIEVAL SWORD book, and start looking. Perhaps the best example I found was that the "King of Jerusalem's" sword is pretty much an exact cop of Edward the III's sword...right down to the number and style of florets on the crossguard. Pretty neat to find Hollywood copying historical arms....even if they were in different time periods/centuries.
Rod W. Thornton, Scholar Adept (Longsword)
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David_Knight
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Re: What is the Definition of a bastard sword?

Postby David_Knight » Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:48 pm

One thing's for sure: the definition of "bastard sword" is clearly not what I said it was when I tested for GFS <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

Eli Gionet
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Re: What is the Definition of a bastard sword?

Postby Eli Gionet » Thu Dec 01, 2005 3:24 pm

Thanks John, that was very helpful, I should probbaly buy that book when it comes out.
Thats very true about how only latly have people really put alot of time into classifications of swords. ARMA has a few articles with that mentioned. And I have been telling people that very thing, specially when Rapier debates are brought up.
So to rounds it all up, a bastard sword is a sword with a triangular blade, or at least one more sharply tappered then the longsword. Or can also be a type XVa, and or a type with a bottle neck grip.


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