Training question-The "force' majore' " of fury...

[Rod-Thornton]

For those who contact spar regularly, I have a question I recently begun to wonder about....

To what extent does the absence of true rage & fury DETRACT from the efficacy and ability to really fence well in a fight...even a training fight? In other words, not being "ticked off" at the sparring partner (usually a training "buddy") must have some impact of lowering one's fighting ability.

(I recall many years ago a wrestling coach telling us "You gotta be a little angry to "whoop tail"....get mad!" -kinda like the 'Waterboy' theory here, eh?).

Notwithstanding wrestling for years, most of my former experiences were not "systemized" approaches to physical contact. Experiences from my past tell me it certainly is a force multiplier...but just HOW MUCH of one?

[Brian Hunt]

In short, this is where intent comes to play. When sparring one should have the intent to survive the fight and take out their opponent while defending their own lives. Frequently it is this type of intent to survive at all costs that is the difference between survival and not surviving in real world encounters where your live is on the line.

Keep in mind that you must maintain control in a sparring match despite your intent or you may really hurt a friend or training partner.

hope this helps.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Derek Gulas]

JC has talked about the importance of "controlled aggression." I believe that is what you're talking about. You don't want to be so angry at your opponent that you loose your ability to think correctly, and do something rash. If you do that, you are likely to make a mistake and loose something important. However keeping a good amount of focused, controlled aggression is important. It can mean the difference between being in Vor or Nach, taking initiative or letting your opponent have it. If you do the later, you are much more likely to end up as a corpse (a padded corpse in our case).

This probably isn't the answer to the question that you are looking for, but if you'd like a quantifiable value for how much anger is going to help you while fighting, I'd say that controlled aggression is going to help you 100%. That might sound a little funny, but consider that if you're in a real sword fight, using lethal weapons, one of you is going to end up walking away dead (hehe). The consequences for failing to be aggressive are dire. Take initiative whenever possible. Be a little angry and live (but not too angry.)

[JeffGentry]

Hey Rod

This is a subject that is very difficult to discuss, because there are so many factor's involved in the pyschology, physiology, of life and death that are not easily grasp even by scientist.

I personaly have participated in alot of extreme sport's where if i made a mistake i may literaly lose my life and have been very seriously injured by losing concentration.

I have heard people say thing's such as "get angry" IMO i do not necessarily agree, when you get too angry you tend to not know what you are doing so you will make mistake's because you are not thinking in a normal manner, i think the reason you do not think normaly when angry is because of the chemical dump that occure's because in high stress situation's that is what occure's the "fight or flight" response, i think it has more to do with your level concentration, and your ability to control your emotion's to be able to over ride the "flight" respone and fight while using the knowledge you learned in training.

That is the hardest thing thing to do, Me and fear are realy good friend's, fear has many face's that i do not think alot of people even recognize, fear is the opposite of confidence, over confidence can also be a form of fear, the pyscology and physiology of fear are very similar to anger, in the respect of what happen's in the bodies chemical system again the "fight or flight" response unless we are confident in our training and can think and react and unless we can use the bodies chemical dump to aid in the fight.

The greatest weapon we have at our disposal is our brain if we lose our ability to think in the proper manner then i think we are bound to lose no matter if we are angry.

all weapon's are useless with out the brain's direction.


Jeff

[John_Clements]

I have a major article for the site in preparation on emotional content --the role of fear & anger --in historical fencing and the teachings of the Masters. It discusses all this. You can't let either rage or fear rule you in combat, yet each play a part.

JC

[Rod-Thornton]

Looking forward to reading it. As to fear, well, I think Ringeck does a decent job summing it up when he opines one should not learn to fence if one has it, as he claims, "...a despondent heart will always fail...."

But in terms of anger...or perhaps more accurately, CHANNELLED anger....that helps in a fight. It is obvious I think that it does. My question is a little more subtle though..... I wonder if the absence of it hurts training. (After all, how many people are angry or ticked with their training partners?) ...and if that is the case, how do we deal with it, and buck up enough "arrrrgh-factor" to come into the fray at peak? I do know from contact sparring, that usually one good rap to the knuckles usually suffices to get the dander up enough to aggress more...yet that is a lousy (and painful) way to reach the emotional mindset to stand against some of the cast of characters in our study group....

[Jaron Bernstein]

Jeff Gentry and I have discussed this in some detail. His own background is in bull riding and white water rafting. My sense is that there are two ways to be "in the fight". The first is what I would call the berserker mentality and the other is what I have heard athletes call being "in the zone". IMO you fight best when you are in one of these 2 modes than when you are just physically but not mentally there. But being "in the zone" lets you defend as well as attack. Berserkers may kill their enemy, but the dreaded double kill is often the result.

[William Savage]

I herd in a fight you should try not to think or feel any emotion, and that that is the best way to let your training take over. Maybe this is "the zone" mentioned above.

Also John mentioned rage and fear, does this mean there is a proper ballance of rage/fear to try and maintain. I recall multiple medieval fight masters condeming fearfull people.

[Jeremy Martin]

I don't think many of us could be completely without fear. Probably get you killed if you didn't fear.

Fear can be a good thing as it can make you more wary and alert, and even lend you strength. But it, like anger, needs to be channeled. Which can be hard for some of us. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Patrick Hardin]

I love to philosophize on this subject, because it is pretty much as important as training and skill in terms of winning a fight. A lot of the RMA masters spoke against being fearful in a fight because fear causes hesitation, and hesitation means the other guy gets you first. Anger is often a very useful tool for maintaining initiative. Your attacks are more committed, and you do not hesitate, because you mean to kill the guy you're facing. Most people need to get angry to reach that level of focus and commitment in a fight. There's just this point where your mind says, "Oh, I've had enough of THIS!" and then you focus all your energy on ending the fight. Some can bring up the aggression without actually getting angry. A few have to get really, really angry to get there. I used to train with a friend of my brother's, who couldn't spar with any level of commitment unless he actually got spitting mad. But then, he wouldn't stop until you pinned him to the ground and held him there for a minute. That's an example of the "berserker mode" that Jaron mentioned. It's definitely not the ideal to shoot for. What you want is a mental state where you are focused, commited, ready to go at it. Anger is often the easiest way to get there, as long as it's not too much. When you're angry enough, you're going to do whatever it takes to kill the other guy.

As for fear, well, there's always bound to be a certain amount of fear in any fight, even for the greatest master. But fear can be controlled, and not allowed to influence one's actions. If you feel enough fear when sparring that it makes you hesitate, then it's something that you need to work on. And, of course, anger can make you forget fear. "The zone," in my opinion, is not necessarily a zen-like state where you feel no emotion, and your training takes over. It's more of a state where your intent/anger is high enough that you forget your fear, and attack without hesitation, while letting your training take over.

When someone fights with enough intent, sometimes it can compensate for lack of skill. What was that story about the Daimyo who nearly lost a fight with a condemned man? The guy had nothing to lose, so he just went straight for him, and nearly won. There's a lot to be said for intent/aggression/anger. I think it was George Silver who said a man should not be considered a master unless he could successfully defend himself against three other masters, three men without skill, yet committed, and three drunken committed men, or something like that. So, the absence of intent/aggression/anger, IMO, will seriously detract from training and sparring.

Just a few thoughts.

Patrick Hardin

[JeffGentry]

Hey Gent's

Speaking from personel experience, when i was in the first gulf war the first time we took fire i didn't experience fear or anger, i just did what i had been doing in training for the 3 year's prior, me and my squad had a pretty high level of intesity when we were training whether it was doing the o-course after liberty call, or going to the gas chamber and going through it 2 or 3 time's.

If anyone has seen that new movie "Jarhead" the sniper platoon portrayed in the movie is actualy about the sniper's from my unit when i was in the gulf war, one guy in the sniper platoon actualy came from my squad, i was with Weapon's company 2nd bn 7th Mar Reg Heavy machine guns the sniper's are H&amp;S compay, we worked with the sniper's on more than one exercise, my squad was pretty hard corps.

This is just from my experience it may differ for other's.


Jeff

[William Savage]

the first time we took fire i didn't experience fear or anger, i just did what i had been doing in training for the 3 year's prior

I knew i wasnt crazy, i remember now were i herd about an absence of emotion was from a guy outa the Iraq war, he said all the useless seeming stuff they did in training became priceless knowhow in real warfare.

So Jeff in your oppinion is that empty state of mind a goal of training.

Im not sure about this but i think i also herd Bruce Lee mention something abut this state of mind in one of my documentary videos on him.

[JeffGentry]

Hey William

I do think it is the goal of training, when you know beyond a doubt that you have trained right and what you know does work then you can rely on that training, and concentrate on the task at hand, I have had the same type of experience when i white water kayak.

I would not doubt if Bruce Lee had this type philosophy.


Jeff

[TimSheetz]

In the book "On Combat" (which I am going to write a review for the ARMA web site) the author cites a MArine Gunny who says of combat:

You do not 'rise to the occaision' in combat, you sink to your lowest level of training.

Under stress our physiology is such that unless we have rehearsed something so much that we can do it without thinking, we will have problems executing it. Especially if it involves fine motor skills.

I think this is why we do not see many wrist manipulations in RMA unarmed techniques... because of the fine motor skills and the level of difficulty and lack of liklihood of success.

Under stress we do goto autopilot in a lot of ways, so it is important to train accurately and with intent. I have heard of police officers struggling to get a perpetrator down and into a hold, then when the bad guy 'taps out' the cop released ... just becasue that is what he did all the time in training.

Tim

[david welch]

Under stress we do goto autopilot in a lot of ways, so it is important to train accurately and with intent. I have heard of police officers struggling to get a perpetrator down and into a hold, then when the bad guy 'taps out' the cop released ... just becasue that is what he did all the time in training.

Tim, there are documented cases where a police officer trained disarms by disarm, hand the gun back, disarm, hand the gun back... that when they did a disarm against a criminal, they handed the weapon back just like they were trained to do!