maximum sword length for sword and shield?

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William Savage
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maximum sword length for sword and shield?

Postby William Savage » Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:27 pm

I mentioned this question in another thread but figure it diserves its own.

If a bastard sword and/or longsword were long enough for 2 handed use but light enough for single hand use, then were they ever used with shields? Or were they technically just "light two handed swords"?

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s_taillebois
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Re: maximum sword length for sword and shield?

Postby s_taillebois » Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:12 pm

In the period your discussing, longswords & bastards were often a defense and offense in the same weapon. And anyway, bastard swords were often carried as civilian defense weapons (i.e. out on travel) and so not as likely someone would have willingly encumbered themselves with a shield)
And bucklers would have been the more common alternative.
Steven Taillebois

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William Savage
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Re: maximum sword length for sword and shield?

Postby William Savage » Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:28 pm

If a bastard sword was a civilian weapon why was it optimized for fighting armor?

And did these people that carried bastard swords durring normal times carry a sword & shield to battle. If so would it have been a normal sword or a long sword with the shield.

A normal sword in the 13/1400s was like 40" right? And a longsword/bastard sword like 45/48" or something?

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s_taillebois
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Re: maximum sword length for sword and shield?

Postby s_taillebois » Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:49 pm

Well, the bastard sword was partially for use agaisnt armour, but also effective for cutting. So, compared to say, an estoc, it wasn't a completely specialized weapon.
The reason that bastards were popular with civilian travelers (outside of the towns), was due to social problems of the period. During the 100 years war, and in the later reformation instability in Germany, the armies of the time were a loose combination of fuedal troops and mercenaries. Basically, it wasn't uncommon for elements of these units to go out on looting expeditions, and despite royal (or whatever the local aristocrats were) letters of safe passage, the overland traders did get hit by these looting elements. Granted the aristocrats, tried to control their troops, because the same banking families (ie De Medicis and Portinaries (sp), and later the Bankers in the North) who loaned the money for mercenaries also funded the traders. And they didn't like the losses.
So, in areas where authority had broken down, it wasn't uncommon for the overland traders (and their armed contingent) to have to deal with armoured assailants.
Some areas, it got so bad that the traders refused to come...and usually by then the Kings exerted their sometimes
occasional authority, and either got control over their troops, or wiped out the brigands which arose from them.
But given the sometimes tenuous nature of royal power in the period, it often got very bad before the kings stepped in to resolve these issues. And some underhandedly encouraged it, for example the Dukes of Burgandy (scheming with the English), had several times almost deprived the ille de France of trade. That's one of the reasons people followed Joan Puselle, at times it was difficult to even leave the towns for even basic trade, let alone long distance trade.
Steven Taillebois

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William Savage
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Re: maximum sword length for sword and shield?

Postby William Savage » Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:08 pm

Thanks.

So the bastard sword was more of a civiliam weapon i guess but i still have my other questions.

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Randall Pleasant
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Re: maximum sword length for sword and shield?

Postby Randall Pleasant » Thu Dec 08, 2005 11:49 am

No! The bastard sword was <u>not</u> more of a civilian weapon. A bastard sword has a very stiff blade that makes it effective against armour.

Please read some of the other threads on bastard swords and the articles on this web site.
Ran Pleasant

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s_taillebois
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Re: maximum sword length for sword and shield?

Postby s_taillebois » Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:20 pm

Actually, the vexation in this discussion is the concept that there was a clear division between a civilian weapon and a military weapon. That's as much an perception of our society now, as anything else.
With the banking/trading families, interests and guilds, it wasn't uncommon for them to negotiate provisions in their charters allowing them to maintain small stores of arms, and for that matter, what amounted to as strongpoints. For example, in the early Renn., one of the problems for the Italians in establishing local centralized authority, was getting the various interests within Florence, Genoa, Pisa and etc...to pull down their defensive towers.
At the larger fairs, such as Chartres, and Champagne, state authority had enough power (or interest in keeping the trade flowing) that weapons were discouraged within the town itself.
However, prior to the Italian invention of the letter of credit, the trade guild caravans had to carry enough specie to trade, which made them targets. And so, some hired, bought, or had the local prince provide them with what amounted to as an armed escort. And since these men were often lower order aristocrats, they would have had weapons and armour roughly equivalent to their military compatriots. Useful for them, insofar as it could intimidate the less well equipped brigands, and put them on a somewhat equal footing to the sometimes problematic detachments of the mercenary armies.
Also, some of these trade interests, sent caravans well out into areas where no centralized authority existed. The Germans were getting out into the forests of Russia, and a few French traders appeared to have gotten as far out as central asia. And excepting where the government had a strong central authority (ie China, or the reign of Henry of Anjou (which is one of the reasons he was well regarded), these trading caravans were on their own when out in the hinterlands.
Later on, and especially in the towns which had bargained (or bought) free charters, it wasn't uncommon for 'civilians' to train with and keep military hardware...to counter balance the aristocrats. A good visual example (albeit a later period) to look up would be Captain Couq's militia company (Rembrant). Another example would be Jost Amman's 1585 German woodcut "Allegory for Trade". Although the drawings are somewhat ambiguous, the traders are wearing rapiers and one bears some form of a triangular cutting sword. The couriers have what appears to be a pike, and a spear with round ball just below the blade. Along of course with the usual daggers and such. And gods know that the townsmen (and by extensions the traders) were inordinately fond of the Pike.
So the arbitrary distinction we're trying to make between a 'civilian' and 'military', weapon...was a bit diffuse at best.
Steven Taillebois

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JeanryChandler
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Re: maximum sword length for sword and shield?

Postby JeanryChandler » Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:20 am

Most of the single handed swords in Oakeshottes typology and other systematic surveys that I have seen, from the time period say 1100 AD -1600 AD, ranged from about 34" -44" in overall length, with the majority falling in the range of 37-40".

Before that Viking type swords, migration swords, and then the Celtic "long" sword / Roman Spatha were all usually in the range of around 34" - 39".

Jr
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William Savage
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Re: maximum sword length for sword and shield?

Postby William Savage » Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:59 pm

Hey thanks
Really cool posts guys

But what i want to know now is, when did Knights and men-at-arms stop useing shields in medieval battles in favor of the longsword?

It sounds like at least one of you guys will deffinatly be able to answer this, since id like to train in a manner reflective of a spacific time period.

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Re: maximum sword length for sword and shield?

Postby JeanryChandler » Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:14 am

Frankly, I think that is something a lot of people are trying to figure out. It depends on issues which are still contraversial such as, the relative effectiveness of mail armor.

One potential answer though is that as (mail) armor began to be worn over more and more of the body (11th - 12th centuries), the two handed ('hand and a half') weapon seems to suddenly appear. As full armor, with sleeves, gauntlets and leggings become increasingly common, so do hand and a half swords. Arguably, the armor began to evolve further to meet the increasing threat of these and other (hafted) weapons, until partial plates began to be introduced, as well as other supplimentary types such as brigantine (aka 'coat of plates') and in the East especially, lamellar.

Jr
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William Savage
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Re: maximum sword length for sword and shield?

Postby William Savage » Sat Dec 10, 2005 2:36 am

I think that is something a lot of people are trying to figure out

But i want an answer now <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

I see your point. Then let me ask another question, if I beefed up could I use a well ballenced, 44" overall, 3lbs. sword in my right hand and a shield in my left.

PS. lamellar is small plates sown to leather or mail right?

And thanks

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William Savage
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Re: maximum sword length for sword and shield?

Postby William Savage » Sat Dec 10, 2005 2:51 pm

Let me rephrase the question i just asked

did anyone ever fight longsword &amp; shield, or was it just sword &amp; shield.?

Im thinking about buying the Crecy sword from Albion but dont know if ill still be able to use a shield with it.

Thanks in advance.

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Brian Hunt
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Re: maximum sword length for sword and shield?

Postby Brian Hunt » Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:25 pm

IMHO, sword and sheild were fought with a single handed sword, not a hand and a half or longsword. The shield is a vicious weapon in and of itself, and you need the shorter length of a single handed weapon in order to cross and un-cross your opponents weapon with ease. The two handed sword or war sword developed as armour inproved and the need for a shield diminished. Therefore you could stand in the fray and swing your weapon with both hands with less danger to yourself. Also, in Anglo-saxon times, it was quite common to use a spear instead of a sword with a shield.

hope this helps.

Brian Hunt
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William Savage
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Re: maximum sword length for sword and shield?

Postby William Savage » Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:56 pm

Brian your a strait shooter

Thanks for the help!!!!

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Brian Hunt
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Re: maximum sword length for sword and shield?

Postby Brian Hunt » Mon Dec 12, 2005 9:56 pm

No problem,

if your still interested in sword and shield combat, you might want to look at the sword and buckler system outlined in the MS.I33. Since we don't have any texts on the actual system used with large shields other than german dualing shields, this is a good place to start.

Brian Hunt
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