The Ignorance of Western Martial Arts

[david welch]

Ron Harris will be at our Lone Star Shwertlager event in August and I will try and run a few of these questions by him.

Tell him ARMA Knoxville just brought in Paul Gomez of Options for Personal Security and "South Nark" of Shivworks this past weekend, both for a "personal self defense" seminar, and for pointers on our unarmed and knife historical work. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />
They both seem to have exactly the same conclusions. Since they both know Ron Harris, and colaborate with him, I would bet he will agree also.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Guy's

Mark "Animal" Macyoung advocate's using mainly deflection's and Running or grabbing a stick or other weapon to keep from getting cut while you try to find a way to run.

He is also of the opinion that most of the time you won't see a knife attack coming until it is too late, in modern context i would agree.

I would bet that all the dagger technique's work in there proper place and time, we are missing alot in that we don't have a setup for these technique's, in most fighting the setup is important for the technique to work and if it is not setup properly we will have a difficult time using it or we will not see when it is setup accidently by our opponent and miss the oppertunity altogether.

Remember the same principle of timing, distance, footwork, vor, nach, indes and feeling(hard/soft) also apply to rondell, wrestling, and all the other weapon's, the principle's don't change just the weapon's(i.e hand/arm, rondell) do.

It is up to us to learn to work with these principal's in mind and use them in the proper manner.

Remember Grace under pressure, focus on what you want to do, and fluidity smotthly flow and execute your technique.

IMHO


Jeff

[Jeremy Martin]

Thanks for the replies guys. I was going to post using some of your quotes on the thread, but being that it was off-topic of the other thread and pretty much the whole board I decided to take the high road. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

But it's been interesting anyways, and answered some of my questions. Thanks again and anyone else feel free to add more. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Jay Vail]

I would bet that all the dagger technique's work in there proper place and time, we are missing alot in that we don't have a setup for these technique's, in most fighting the setup is important for the technique to work and if it is not setup properly we will have a difficult time using it or we will not see when it is setup accidently by our opponent and miss the oppertunity altogether.

The set up is to gain control of the knife arm. That starts with a proper cover. If you want to learn proper covers, study Fiore's plays against the dagger.

As for almost never seeing that attack, that is too much of a generalization. Sometimes you see the blade, sometimes you don't. It depends on the attacker and on the situation.

[Jay Vail]

"...the first priority for anyone who knows anything about fighting [again with the insult implying he is smart and you aren't] is to disarm your attacker if you have no weapon yourself."

The guy doesn't know what he's talking about. Covering the attack and gaining control of the knife arm is the first priority in unarmed defense. Fiore's manual makes this abundantly clear, and I believe him to be correct. All his plays start from covers and come about from having gained control of the arm.

"Furthermore disarming is one of the easiest things you can do once you know how. The body mechanics of the wrist and hands can be easily manipulated with the right applications of force, which make it impossible for even a very stong person to continue holding their weapon."

I would not say disarms are easy, but they are possible. However, they will not work unless you have control of the attacker's arm. It must gripped well and generally isolated, such as in the armpit armlock, which works really really well even against an experienced man.

Ah yes, it is SOOOO easy to disarm an armed man... This sounds like the stuff the Jujitsu practicioner (1st Dan) said right before we sparred. I massacred hum in sparring when doing hand vs the knife (I have zero formal grappling training).

This is not surprising. Unarmed knife defense against a cautious and skilled knifer is just about the hardest thing to do in martial arts. I've played with this stuff for a long time and I often get "killed" by experienced cautious players. If the guy thought he could win, then he has not spent enough time training and freeplaying.

That said, I must remind the readers of this forum that your typical knife attacker is not an experienced knifer, he is a punk who has little to no training. SEcond, his attack will not be cautious but committed, meaning he will put everything into his blow and it will not be preceded by a feint. All knife defenses are designed to address this committed attack. You, the readers (not necessarily you Tim) , need to understand this fundamental truth when you are training. If you do not, you will not understand why you do certain stuff and why it works in the real world.

Virtually impossible unless you really, really work it. You will have better luck grabbing and controlling the arm then working the hand or wrist.

Yes! Absolutely. That is the key.

[Rey Garcia]

Hello all sorry I havent posted in a while but I've been busy training for a fight . First of all I have to jump right in and make some corrections First of all on the matter of bjj and judo . Brazilian jiu-jitsu is a form of judo called kosen judo in kosen(old school ) it has been taught in the Kodokan since the late 1800's after the fusen ryu school of jiu-jitsu beat the kodokan school by dragging their opponents to the mat and using ne waza(ground tecniques ) to beat them Prof Kano being no fool incorporated these tecniques into his school because they worked and they are in existence today. In kodokan competetion rules their is a no drag down rule and a timelimit on the ground beceause he did not want to lose the throwing techniques whic are the essence of judo . However he encouraged the kosen schools to continue their specialty because he recognized the effectivness of the style. One of the best of the kosen men was Madera San who was a nhb fighter in the 1900's and traveled to spain and eventually settled in (In case you didnt already guess it ) Brazil where his two best students were two brothers Carlos and Helio gracie. The continued the tradition tof their sensei and retained the striking techniques and becoming very competent mat men . But Brazillian jiu-jitsu is Kosen judo absolutly and undeniably.
Now on to WMA and EMA Previously on another link I wrote about a comparisson between the two please look up in the intrest of saving time and space please look up that post. Ground tecnicques are somthing that have only become a speciaty of the 20th century because its only in past century that people have begun to not carry weapons for personal protection . The ground was the last place you would want to be rolling aroun when someone was trying to stick a peice of sharpened metal into you. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
Ok on to dissarming techniques . Learn them they can save your life .it is true a lot of times you wont see a knife however if you have trained enough times you will be able to build muscle memory and reactions which can save you without having to stop to think . You have to build reactions which your body will automaticly respond to . I have had people attemt to stab me three times twice i was cut (both times on the hand ) because I had reacted and done what i had practiced so may times (I never did see the knife until it was over) I have disarmed men of pistols also and once a sniper whith a rifle ( and gave him a free judo lesson after I tatooed smith and wesson onthe side of his head with my revolver) I have been a NYC Police officer for 21 Years the last 11 in the fugative enforcment division violent felony unit and have been instructing at the police academy tactical training unit . Teaching unarmed fighitng and disarming tecniques.
Joint locks and breaks and dissarming techniques should be learned equally well they are both relivant and should be studied .
Incidentally I won the bronze medal at the world masters judo championship with a standing armlock (fiore de libre, Wrestling section ,first tecnique)

Reynold Garcia
1999 World Masters Judo /Gold
2005 Wold Masters Judo/Bronze

[David_Knight]

I am working on an article to address this very issue. Basically, I am cataloguing all the techniques in the current US Army and USMC combatives manuals that have identical counterparts in the fechtbucher and other historical sources. It's turning out to be a rather long list. I should be finished with it by the weekend after next (unfortunately, I have more important deadlines to meet).

[Rey Garcia]

Very cool brother . I just got (finally) a digital camera . I'm working on a slide show of flower of battles wrestling techniques and dagger . Thank god rodger sousy the leader of my study group is a computer guy !!! I'll let you know how its turning out . And we will post it on the ARMA site.
P.S. feed back from the scolars is appreciated.

[David_Knight]

A shorter version of my article (specific to Paulus Hector Mair) is now online at: http://www.paulushectormair.com/CQC_PHM.htm

[Matt Bryant]

The disarms are good to train, but untill you become VERY skilled it is best to stiffle the offending arm and deal injury. I have pulled off some fancy disarms a couple of times, but that was pretty much luck.

[JoshCooley]

Hey Guys, I'm new around here but thought I'd jump in on this topic.

I don't have the expertise in martial arts that most of you do, However I'm well trained in history and historical methodology. Thus my first thought upon reading the initial post here was somewhat different than most of the responses here.

Most of the responses have focused on comparison of the effectiveness or possibly the similarities between between WMA and EMA.
My first thought upon seeing the claims about military training being based on EMA were more along the lines of the history of how unarmed martial arts have developed in the US over the last half century or so.

The first point, and most obvious to the purely historian minded is that EMA are prominant in modern american practice simply because unarmed WMA other than sport wrestling and boxing have been virtually unknown and nearly completely forgotten.
Unless I'm mistaken one of the cardinal purposes of ARMA is to address this very fact that WMA has been forgotten as an actual practice and needs to be reconstructed through study of historical sources and through actual physical practice.

thus it is completely obvious that most unarmed training is going to be based on EMA systems, or at least appear to be based on EMA systems, because until recently there have been no other MA systems practiced. (except in a few obscure and relatively unknown groups.)

Another important point is that historicaly virtually all unarmed MA were developed for the purpose of fighting armed people. Martial Arts in this case understood to mean arts of combat related to war. Combat, despite romanticism, has almost always been an affair completely devoted to practicality. The simple rule is that whoever fights the best wins and whoever loses dies tends to eliminate in a hurry the idea of "rules" and "forms" etc.
Since combat in the ages past has always been dominated by weapons, even personal civilian combat until the last century or so (as someone pointed out) was always dominated by weapons.. thus all unarmed martial arts originaly developed with the central focus of fighting people who were armed and in many cases armored as well.

The EMA for whatever reason have enjoyed great popularity over the last half century and as a result have had a chance to evolve in an environment devoted to unarmed people fighting unarmed people (in terms of self defence and also sport combat). Thus it is not surprising that many of the modern EMA's are more versatile in situations of unarmed vs. unarmed.
WMA have only recently begun to be reconstructed and thus have not had the same opportunity to develop and adapt to a new combat environment that doesn't involve as many weapons, or the same kinds of weapons.

Having said that, police training and military training is, as martial training has always been, eminently practical. Thus if you undergo any of those training programs you will likely not find any one martial art completely represented with traditional forms and rules etc but rather principles taken from a variety of sources and adapted to the current environment.

For example, while those training programs may teach disarming etc etc for situations where one on one unarmed vs. armed is unavoidable... most training in law enforcement and security industries focuses on tactics of avoiding situations like that. Police training for example focuses on assuring that you win the engagement.. if your not sure you can win you should not engage unless you have no other choice. If your not sure you can win, avoid engagement until you have more back up, or can shift the other tactical factors in your favor.. only as a last resort would you ever get into a situation in which you would ever be one on one with an armed man (and you unarmed).

[Vince Enlund]

There are some good video clips on this site but all are with weapons.

http://www.vsocial.com/video/?l=329

But I have done a lot of reasurch on the subject of unarmed combat from the piont of Western Martial arts and by the 10th centry many of the norman, icelandic and germanic people had recorded over 50 throwing teachniques as well as stricking, chocking, kicking and breaking teachniques greatly resembling a combination of wreastling, judo and karate. Just becouse these things where ought in a family format and not a traditional schooling style does not mean that they where not as direct or formitable as the eastern arts. I am a judo and shotokan karate instructor and many of my students prefer to use the western styled techniques for there direct simplisity and efectiveness.

[Brian Hunt]

Wow,

a large number of those are ARMA videos directly from this site.

Brian Hunt.
GFS

[Logan Weed]

Well of course ninjutsu is better. Everyone knows ninja are capable of flight, teleportation and killing you from several feet away through sheer force of will. In short -"your feeble skills are no match for the power of the dark side".

I must say though, being a student of Korean martial arts I can definitally empathize with ARMA's position. Due to cultural changes, war and occupation Korea's martial history was almost entirely lost by the time Japanese forces left at the end of WWII.

In Haidong Gumdo we train in the use of a two handed sabre not unlike the Japanese tachi. The art was constructed primarily through the study of old manuals, experimentation, logic, and comparison with existing arts. Korean arts are often accused of being simply copied from Japanese and Chinese traditions or having no historical basis at all. It can be extremely agitating to attempt to argue that Haidong Gumdo teaches legitimate ancient fighting techniques and strategies. "But Gumdo's lineage doesn't go any farther back than the 50's" is usually the argument. One of the problems seems to be the idea that an art must have an uninterrupted lineage of instructors dating back a dozen generations to be legitimate.

[Cory Watkins]

mike....to much realultimatepower man....