Krumphau: Edges and body mechanics

[Randall Pleasant]

In preparation for a study group practice in which I would be showing some new scholars Liechtenaeur's master cuts I spent some time reviewing Ringeck's discussion of the Krumphau in Tobler's <u>Secrets of German Medieval Swordsmanship</U>. I noticed that Tobler, like many other scholars, was not sure if the Krumphau should be performed with the true edge or the false edge (page 39) since Ringeck does not state which edge to use. On the other hand, Peter von Danzig 1492 states that the true edge should be used while Hans Talhoffer shows the false edge being used (Mark Rector, <u>Medieval Combat</u>, plate 19). As I contemplate the issue it occurred to me that which edge to use in a Krumphau might be the wrong question.

In a recent training and in recent writings (http://www.thearma.org/essays/parrying3.htm) John Clements noted the relationship between the Schranckhut (barrier) guard and the Hengen parry. Likewise there is a relation between the Krumphau and the Schranckhut since a Krumphau from the right side ends normally ends in a left Schranckhut. Ringeck uses the Krumphau to move into the Schranckhut as an Absetzen to an Oberhau from the adversary's right side. Ringeck states:

This is how you can Absetzen ("set aside") the cuts from above with the Krumphau: If he attacks you from his right side with an Oberhau, step towards his left side with your right foot and put your point in the Schrankhut. Practice this from both sides. From the setting aside you can strike him on the head (http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Ringeck.htm).

In regard to performing the left Hengen parry (hilt to the upper right, point to the lower left) John emphasized that the palm should be up so that the wrist is pulled back. This is a stronger position then if the palm was down with the wrist bent forward. In addition, the blade is aligned for a quick counter cut. I noticed if I perform the Krumphau with the long edge that I finished the cut in the Schrankhut with my wrist bent forward. The weakness of a forward bent wrist can allow an adversary to push through with either a cut or thrust or set you up for a possible disarm or take down. The cross-arm position is already a weak position, Hans Talhoffer refers to this as "a weak crosswise guard" (plate 23), the forward bent wrist makes it even more so. In Talhoffer's example the adversary is about to push through with weak Hengen guard with a thrust. John recommends against using the left schrankhut because of the weakness of the crossed wrists. Instead, he recommends using a right schrankhut that is moved to the left side by slightly raising the hilt and turning of the body.

While working on the Krumphau during the practice I asked one of our new scholars (who I trust!) to reach out and grab my forward bent wrist. With almost no effort the other scholar was able to take me painfully down by my wrist. This grappling was painfully enough that I was not willing to try it at speed! Base on these observations I suggest that the question is not what edge to use in a Krumphau. Rather, the real question is how does a swordsman perform a Krumphau so that after the cut he is left in a strong defensive position with good blade alignment for a quick counter cut?

I found that what works for me is to use the long edge if the Krumphau is low so that I end up in the left Schranckhut with my palm down but straight. I use the short edge if the Krumphau is performed higher so that I end up in a high left Schranckhut (Hengen parry) with my palm up and straight. If the Krumphau is aimed at the adversary's upper body or head then I again use the short edge. This last Krumphau is very much like the reverse Zwerchhau that Ringeck describes using the long edge. Thus what is the long edge in one version is the short edge in the other version. Therefore, I can only conclude that which edge to use when performing a Krumphau is not important. Rather, what are important when performing a Krumphau are proper body mechanics during the cut and good body and blade position after the cut.

I welcome comments...

[Jake_Norwood]

Interesting observations, Randall.

Meyer seems rather clear in the Krumphau being done as Tober shows. I've also noticed that Meyer seems to cross his arms a whole lot, so that even his schrankut is the low crosswise guard that Talhoffer shows. This is one area where I do agree with Tobler--the Krump is easiest and quickest done long-edge from your right, short-edge from your left.

[Mike Cartier]

This great examination of the Krumphau page at schielhau.org has some interesting examples.
http://schielhau.org/krumphau.html
After this I kind of realized that Krumphau could be different and still be krumphau, there seem to be short and long edge versions, that work equally well depending on the intitial position, or at least thats how it seems to my newb view <img src="/forum/images/icons/crazy.gif" alt="" />

[Jake_Norwood]

Mike-

Thanks for posting that. I really like what they've done, cross-referencing those references all in one place. I wish we had more of the kind.

[Hans Heim]

Hello together,

first a short view into the manuals:

Aus Doebringer

Glosa /

Hie merke und wisse das der krumphaw ist eyn oberhaw der domit eyme guten ausschrete / krumpes dar get / zam noch eyner seiten / Doru[e]m meynt lichtnawer der den selben haw wol wil furen / der sal wol beseitz aus schreiten czu der rechten hant / danne her den haw brengt / Und sol synen ort / werfen / ader schissen / ieme aber syn gehilcze of dy hende / Und sal mit synen flechen hawen / wen her denne trift / dy flechen zo sal her stark dor of bleiben und vaste drucken / und sal sehen / was her denne am endlichsten und geradsten / dar brengen mag / mit hewen stichen ader sneten / und sal mit nichte czu korcz hawen / und sal des durchwechsels nicht vorgessen / ab sichs gepu[e]rt /

Doebringer says only that the Krumphau is nothing more than a Oberhau with a good step at the side.
But a Oberhau is normally made with the true edge.

Aus Jud Lew:

Krump auf behende Würff den ort auf die hende Krump wer wol versetzet Mit schritten vil hew letzet

Glosa

Wisß daß krump haw ist der vier versetzen einß wider die vier hut wann damit kriegt man den ochsen und auch den eber / Und den untterhaw den trieb also wann du mit dem zufechten zu Im komst Steet er denn gegen dir und helt sein swert vor dem kopff In der hut deß ochsen auf seiner lincken seitten So setz den lincken fuß für und halt dein swert an der rechten achseln yn der hut und auß der hutt springe mit dem rechten fusse wol auff die rechten seitten und schlag In mit der langen sneiden auß gecreutzten armen über sein hende etc.

Master Lew gave us the advice to cut from the right side with the true edge and crossed arms over his hands.

Item den krump haw soltu auch treiben auß der schranckhut von baiden seitten und In die hut schick dich also wann du mit dem zufechten zum man kompst so setz den lincken fuß vor und halt dein swert mit dem ort neben deiner rechten seitten auf der erden daß die lang sneiden am swertt oben gewant sei Und gib dich also ploß mit der lincken seitten Hewet er dir dann zu der plösse oben ein so spring auß dem hawe mit dem rechten fusse wol auf die rechten seitten gegen Im und stoß mit der lincken hant den knopff deineß swerteß untter deinen rechten arm und slag In mit gecreutzigten henden auß der langen sneiden mit dem ort auf sein hende etc.

Item also schick dich mit der schranckhut zu deiner lincken seitten wann du mit dem zu vechten zum mann kompst So setze den rechten fuß für und halt dein swert mit dem ort neben deiner lincken seitten auf der erden mit gecreutzigten henden daß die kurtz sneiden am swertt oben sein und gib dich mit der rechten seitten ploß Hewet er dich dann zu der plösse so schreit mit dem lincken fuß wol auß dem haw auf dein lincke seitten und schlag In mit dem schritt mit der kurtzen schneiden über sein hende etc.

The Krumphau could also be done out of the Schrankhut, you push or pull with your left hand and cut from the right side with the true edge and from the left side with the false edge.

Aus Ringeck:

Krump vff behende, wirff den ort vff die hende.

Glosa.

Daß ist, wie du krump solt hawen zuden henden. Vnd daß stuck tryb also: wenn er dir von seiner rechten sytten mitt ainem obern oder vndern haw zu der blöss hawet, so spring vsß dem haw mitt dinem rechten fuß gegen im wol vff sin lincke sytten; vnd schlach mit gecrütztem armen mit dem ort vff die hende. Vnd das stuck tryb och gen im, wenn er gen dir stant jn der hüt deß ochsen.

Ringeck says nothing about the edge only to cut with crossed hands from your right side.

Aus von Danzig

Krump auf behende wirff den ort auf die hende krump wer wol seczet mit schritten vil haw leczet

Merck der krump haw ist der vier vor seczen ainß wider die vier hüten / wenn do mit pricht man die hüten / die do haist der öchsß / und auch der öber / und den under haw den treib also / wenn du mit dem z&amp;#367; vechten z&amp;#367; im kumpst stet er denn gegen dir / und helt sein swert für seinem haubt / In der h&amp;#367;t der ochsenß auff seiner lincken seitten / So setz den lincken fuesß vor / und halt dein swert an deiner rechten achsel in der h&amp;#367;t / und spring mit dem rechten fuesß wol auff dein rechte seitten gegen ÿm / und slach ÿn mit der langen schneid auß gekräuczten armen uber sein hend


Von Danzig gave the advice to cut from your right side with the true edge and crossed hands.

Now try to perform the Krumphau like the movement of an windshield wiper and hold your sword in the Schrankhut at your right side withthe following grip:

1. The thumb of your right hand at the flat of the blade.
2. The tip at the ground.
3. The palm of your hand up, the back of your hand towards the ground.
4. True edge up, fals edge down.
5. Stand with the left foot in front.
6. Step to your right with your right foot. Push your left hand down, your right hand is only the axis and does not move very much.

From the left side:
1. Right foot in front.
2. True edge down, false edge up.
3. Arms crossed, palm of your right hand down, back of your right hand up.
4. Pull your left hand down and step with the left leg to your left.
5. Think of the windshield wiper!!!

If you hold the sword in this grip you have a very strong hand, wrist, underarm position of your right hand. A lot of power and in the following techniques (schnappen) you cut back in the right guards.

Oh, in the early manuals, there is no hanging guard with the long sword.

Hans

[Jake_Norwood]

Hans-

Thanks. That's what I've been thinking, too, but it's really great to see it from so many sources. I've felt that many of these cuts (Krump, Zwerch, etc) have been areas that were unclear before, but now we're getting there...I understand more all the time. Thanks again.

[Guest]

No to change the subject. But by the way, this reminds me of something Jake and I discussed in Provo recently, that the Hengen is both described and shown by Meyer (and seen elsewhere) with the blade receiving the blow on the flat. Why then would this be any different for a short sword than with a long? (excluding 18th &amp; 19th century sabers &amp; broadswords, etc.). We've always though there is no difference in how it's performed whether with one hand on a shorter blade or two on a longer.

JC

[Hans Heim]

Hi John,

I am not sure about this, but in the older manuals there is no evidence of a hanging parry or a hanging guard, there is even not an indication of it.

The only thing that is a little bit similar, but only a bit, is the technique of "Absetzen", but the difference is the orientation, the alignment of the tip of the sword. In the old manuals you should always try to aim as long as possible at the enemy as preperation for the thrust.
In the time of J.Meyer for the "Fechtschul" - fencing thr thrust is not allowed, so the alignment of the tip is not so important. So you have the Hengen and Hangend Orte as guard.

Even in the book of Leckuechner about the Langes Messer, the displacement "Pogen" is not like a "Hengen" with the tip sideways, it is a countercut with the tip towards the enemy.

Hans

[Jake_Norwood]

And yet the Hengen is a very useful position, and you see it in manual pictures, though not by that name. Talhoffer plate 23, for example, shows a high "weak crossed guard" and "der hut," which Rector describes in German as ochs and in english in Hengen. I'm not interested in debating Rector's interperetation, but in pointing out that the position shown on both sides (but especially the right) is a very high schrankhut...which happens to be the same thing as a hengen (again, especially on the right). Remember that the early german master's weren't in to naming all of the guards, but that doesn't mean that they didn't use the techniques.

[Guest]

See the plate in Talhoffer Hans, it shows in essence a hanging point parry, though with sword and buckler. Remove teh buckler and it's the same, and I think it can be argued the moves in Leckeuchner's Messer are also hanging. Maire too includes the hanging, and he is not "school fencing" nor does he ignore the thrust like Meyer says to (while actualy inclduing it in the illustrations).

JC

[Hans Heim]

Hi together.

Hello Jake,

you are right that the displacement “Verhengen” is a very useful technique, my intention was, to clear that this displacement:

1.Enemy cuts from above
2.Defender is in low guard
3.Defender intercepts the cut at the flat of his blade

could not be proven in the old manuals of the long sword.
It is proven in the times of J.Meyer, o.k., but not before.

The plate 23 out of Thalhoffer could be like this technique out Lebkuechner:


page 14 left

Hangenden ortt auff dy linck seytten
Windt : wiltu dy mütiren ab leytten

Hye lertt der meyster wie man dy mutiren prechen soll
auff die lincken seytten vnd spricht hengenden ortt zc Das
sol dw alzo versteen Macht er dy mutiren auff deiner
lincken seytten So wind gegen Im den hangenden ortt vnd
stich Im nach der negsten plösz zc.

Here teaches the master how to break the mutieren
at the left side and talks hengenden ortt. This
should be understand like this. Performs he the mutieren at your left side so wind against him the hangenden ort and
thrust him at the next opening.

This technique fits 100 % perfect to the plate 23 out of Talhoffer and it is not the displacement like I described above.


Hi John,

yes in Talhoffer with sword and buckler is shown a hanging point parry.
Like I shown above the hanging in Leckuechner is not the same technique like this shown in Talhoffer with sword and buckler. What is shown in Leckuechner and in Talhoffer many times is a counter cut from below (remember the hand cut off).
I think that we could let us help from the Messer techniques to interpret the techniques of the long sword, but the techniques from sword and buckler are different from the long sword.

You are right, in the later books are the hanging guard, the hanging parry, but where in the early?

The biggest problem that I have with the hanging is that the early masters tried to hold the point as long and as often as possible towards the enemy. This is shown in the guard Ochs or Pflug and in the "defending" technique Absetzen. About the importance of the tip talked Doebringer again and again.

Hans

[Jake_Norwood]

Hans-

Good stuff. Let's see here...

Hye lertt der meyster wie man dy mutiren prechen soll
auff die lincken seytten vnd spricht hengenden ortt zc Das
sol dw alzo versteen Macht er dy mutiren auff deiner
lincken seytten So wind gegen Im den hangenden ortt vnd
stich Im nach der negsten plösz zc.

Here teaches the master how to break the mutieren
at the left side and talks hengenden ortt. This
should be understand like this. Performs he the mutieren at your left side so wind against him the hangenden ort and
thrust him at the next opening.

Part of the issue is that what you describe I'm calling the Hengen, regardless of it's use to intercept a blow or for other things. In other words, the "hanging point" did exist, but they used it differently (or, rather, the later deflection-of-an-oberhau use hasn't been found yet from such an early period, if I understand this correctly). What this does show, though, is that they were aware of the position and that they called it Hengen, the term which would later mean

1.Enemy cuts from above
2.Defender is in low guard
3.Defender intercepts the cut at the flat of his blade

And yet we see Talhoffer do it with the single-sword, meaning he knew that this position (or one like it) could be used in the 1-2-3 method (verhengen?) that you describe above.

What I'm trying to say is that Talhoffer knew that hengen could be used in both ways. That he or those of his period didn't advocate using the 1-2-3 method is certainly possible, but we also see masters warning us against all kinds of practices and then doing them all over the place (such as the exhortation not to cross the arms, or not to displace but rather to use single-time meisterhau-style actions). The fact is that "hengen" is a very comfortable reactionary position and that I find it unlikely that the older masters never used it to deflect oberhauen, even though they would have prefferred to do something else.

As a side note, I'm getting a lot out of this.

Jake

[Guest]

Thanks, Hans. I think we can see the hanging point with the longsword in the 15th century works, but why they would not have mentioned or named such an obviously useful technique clearly until later is perplexing. Although, I have noted the term "Pendant", referring to soemthing that "hangs", does indeed appears in the 15th cnetury English fencing text MS 39564. We'll never be able to prove conclusively what it means but interpreting it as a hanging pont has worked well for us.

JC

[Guest]

Two points to add. One, I think Hengen is always held in a way that threatens with the point as well as "hangs", otherwise it is too vulnerable. I always teach to keep its point where it can turn into a stab if needed and prevent the opponent just closing in. Second, I think the poistion is one of transition in making a round strike and not a mere parry action prepatory to striking. After all, in making a round strike you "pass through" the hanging position as you lift your blade to cut around. Make sense?

Maybe this also explain why they did not seem to see it as a seperate technique in the 15th century, since it was just part of a displaicing counter strike?

JC

[Hans Heim]

Hi Jake,

In other words, the "hanging point" did exist, but they used it differently (or, rather the later deflection-of-an-oberhau use hasn't been found yet from such an early period, if I understand this correctly).

>>Yes, you are right, I think they know the technique hengen, they used it, but in a different way.
You are right again with: “the later deflection-of-an-oberhau use hasn't been found yet from such an early period”, this is 100 % my problem.

>>> I think like you, that Talhoffer knew that hengen and used it. I only could not prove that it was used as 1.-2.-3 method with the longsword.


Hi John,

>>> This is the problem with pictures or mysterious texts, sometimes we only see what we whish to see. It is also perplexing for me that they did not mention the 1.-2.-3 method. They used the principle “to let the sword of your enemy run down at the flat of your blade” while wres-tling and later it is absolutely proven.

After all, in making a round strike you "pass through" the hanging position as you lift your blade to cut around. Make sense?

>>>Yes, this makes sense for me.

Maybe this also explain why they did not seem to see it as a seperate technique in the 15th century, since it was just part of a displaicing counter strike?


>>>Could be and please do not misunderstand me, I do not say that the technique “Verhengen 1.-2.-3” is a bad one, or that the ARMA should not use it.
What is only perplexing for me is:

It is a good technique for us, but in the early books it was not important enough for them to write it down. Why?

Hans