Sword broken durring practice

[Bill Tsafa]

I recently broke one of my swrds durring my practice sessions and I would like to share the info and some pictures with you guys. I have been practicing with this sword for over a year and a half, so I would not say that it is a bad sword, but rather that its time has come.

My expeciance has shown that the weakest points of swords is the tang. I have broken two swords in the tang and one in the pin that goes through the pommol. I have never broken a blade. I suspect that sword makers are not heat treating the tang, only the blade. It is my hope that by bringing attention to this, better swords will be made in the future.

By luck, I happened to be recording when this happend and you can see the actual moment of breakage on the following website. It is a very small video, about 340 kb. I also have some close up pictures.

http://mysite.verizon.net/tsafa1/Valiant%20Armory%20Black%20Prince/index.htm

[Brian Hunt]

Looks to me like the tang was too square to the blade. This creates a place where a stress riser can happen. A stress riser will cause a blade to break over time. This is also the reason one should avoid edge to edge parries, the resultant gouge is a stress riser and a place that the sword [color="red"] will [/color] [color="black"] [/color] fail at some point. A tang should make a curve into the blade, not have square shoulders. This is more difficult to make because you then have to recess or carve out the guard to match the curve of the tang. As for heat treating the tang, most makers I have talked to say a soft tang is much better than a hard tang.

Laters.

Brian Hunt
GFS

P.S. sorry about your sword. <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" />

[Bill Tsafa]

Thanks for that good info Brian. Don't feel bad for the sword it met a noble end. I think a worse fate for a sword is to be hung on a wall for display. Better a sword have a short glorious life then a long inactive one <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

I have replaced that sword with the Generation 2 Lucerin Prince. It is the same type, just a little lighter, a bit stiffer in the thrust. We'll see what this one can do.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Jeff Gentry broke his MRL Towten in the same way at the same place (at the cross) during a test cutting.

[Jonathan Scott]

Yes, I agree, a used blade is better than a displayed one.
I have a question that is slightly related. In any of these replica sword breaks (I have heard of several and seen three now on video), has anyone been injured (mild or severe) by the blade snapping off (And possibly hitting them)? It looks to me like it's a possibility at least...

[Bill Tsafa]

In one case, the pin in my G2 Irish sword broke connecting the pommol. So the pommol fell to the floor, the sword was still in my hand.

In the case of the VA War Sword the tang broke near the pommol again. In this case both the sword and pommol stayed in my hands, just seperate. Nothing went flying.

In the recent case of the VA Black Prince, the tang broke just bellow the crossgaurd and the blade did go flying. Inertia cared the blade away from me in the direction that I was swinging in. I think that is what will happen most of the time when you get a piece of the blade flying off.

I saw one case on the homeshopping network, where the TV spokesman was flicking the flat of a $20 stainless steel katana against some hard object. The blade broke in the middle and hit him. The blade peice sort of deflected onto him off the object he was hitting. Forget about the quality of the sword, the mannor in that he was beating the katana was not in a manor that you would if you were practicing. He was sitting down and waking it sideways onto an object a few inches from his body.

One most keep in mind that here are aways inharent dangers in swormanship. It is after all a intended to be a deadly art. I think my practice sessions are less risky then every time I get on a motorcycle.

[Logan Weed]

'Just don't make 'em like they used to eh?

[Bill Tsafa]

They probably make em a lot better then thye use too. Espessialy the mass produced ones. I think that the swords of 10 to 15 years ago would never stand up to the training that I do.

I also suspect that modern high quality production swords are better then the ones from before 600 years ago. The steel quality is more quanititatively measured and the hardening and tempering process is down to a science. I supsect that after any battle 600 years ago, most weapons went back to the blacksmith for repair or to be turned into horseshoes. Unfortunalty we do not have a local blacksmiths, so we must be more sellective in picking the toughest swords.

[s_taillebois]

Generally the materials themselves would be quite a bit more consistant. However, the guilds were fairly careful to limit their membership (for both economic and quality reasons), so any master of an armourers guild, had proven themselves. Local blacksmiths might have made the arrow points, billhooks, and the occasional cheaper sword. But the real quality/expensive weapons would have been the result of places like Nuremburg, the guilds, and the associative tradesmen. And anyone who obtained a royal/aristocratic warrent, was usually very careful to keep the quality very high.
That's the one weakness modern swordmakers would have compared to their antecedents. Obviously, the routine need for these as a battlefield weapon is gone, and there few cultural standards affecting the production of these implements. (although there is a lot of somewhat silly cultural mythology) Accordingly, there's an incredible variation in quality with modern makers. A good thing, insofar as the products available, problematic in the stunning amount of junk out there.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jonathan

has anyone been injured (mild or severe) by the blade snapping off (And possibly hitting them)?

Well when my Towton snapped the broken blade came very close to hitting me, I was lucky it didn't.


Jeff

[Bill Tsafa]

Well when my Towton snapped the broken blade came very close to hitting me, I was lucky it didn't.

Is that the Windlass Townton you are talking about? I have the Windass Classic mideval. The tang/hilt is trash. Did yur blade break or the tang? I find that windlass swords are very soft and flexible so I would be suprised of the blade broke.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Bill

Is that the Windlass Townton you are talking about?

Yes it was Windlass Towton, it broke right at the tang blade.


Jeff

[s_taillebois]

M. Gentry, Fortunate you were either positioned well, or some kinder fate was watching out for you.
MRL, seems they are a bit inconsistant at times. Have some MRL equipment about, and have used it fairly heavily with no issues. But did remount the hilt, and filed a bit around tang/blade junction.
On this discussion, I'd wonder how equivalent the practice usage is between the historical swords, and those today. Is it actually possible that some are using them for more day to day practice than did their historical antecedents?
In the historical period, they did have some beliefs which indicate indirectly that some didn't use their swords on a daily basis. One was the belief that witches/demons caused swords to dull-if these were used more frequently, it seems that one wouldn't have come up. (Of course, aristocrats spent as much time administering courts, and handing out fuedal boons (or scheming to get squirrel fur coats), and collecting taxes and such , as they did fighting or getting ready to fight)

[Bill Tsafa]

I was considering buying that Windlass Towton a while ago but I did not because the handle looked a bit thin to me plus I was dissatisfied with the strenth of the hilt on my Classic Medieval. From what you posted I am glad I did not buy it.

It amazes me that many manufactues make the tangs on hand and half swords just as thin as the tangs on a one hand sword. When you use two hands on a sword the amount of torque on the handle doubles on impact.

Windless has a beautiful 15th Century Longsword with siderings that I would buy right now if I had more confidence in them. They really are shooting themselves in the foot.