Thoughts on Armor

[Jason Romandell]

Something I have been thinking about is the preoccupation with the weapons of the period and their exactness. The same can not be said of armor. Now I have dabbled at making armor and am a big fan of the stuff. I look at alot of the recreation of armor and notice that alot of our modern ideas have influenced our interpritation. One of the better examples I see are in the gambesons. Manny are made really baggy with alot of room. But if the surviving examples and period art are to be belived these garmets were far mor fitted about the chest area. Also armor seems to be sized all wrong. Things appear to made a size to big.

THis dispearity was made quite evedent to me when I trided on a pair of gauntlets made by Robert Macphearson. Man O Man what a difference they were. How dose armor made not quite to medeival and renn truness affect our own interpritation of the combat arts of the period? How many misconcations have we dreamt up and conveyed out of ignorance? Take the churburg breastplate. Most recreations cover the area from clavical to the belly button. If one looks at the original, it covers (basically) only the ribcage. Why did men engaged in life and death struggles choose to make things this way? I really wounder if perhaps we have diverted a bit from the truth by incorrect data. Anyhow, just wanted to throw this out there and see what others think.

J

[Brian Hunt]

Part of the problem is that a lot of the armour currently being made is sport armour. It is made for groups like the SCA where they primarily use a-historical (read made up) techniques, such as the "wrap", in their fighting. As a result the armour is made to meet their needs/rules and not neccesarily be historically accurate. One area you see this is in the guantlets. Due to the number of rolling wrist shots thrown, instead of from the shoulder or elbow, they need guantlets that have a greater range of motion than a historically correct set. Helmets are thicker and heavier in order to take the beatings given in a sporting evironment. Yes these type of changes do affect how you fight. Crappy armour will only allow you to do so much, and armour built around a specific sport will move a little different than the historical armour it is based upon. As for the churburg harness, keep in mind it is 14th century transitional armour and relies on Chain as well Plate to keep you safe. Would I like to see more historically correct armour being sold? You bet, but I just recently read a SCA thread where there were those that said you cannot get knighted fighting in historically correct armour with historically correct techniques because you cannot have the high end game you need, instead you better go for a sport armour that is a plastic/steel hybrid and learn all sport techniques used by the SCA. Since the SCA is one of the largest groups that use armour it is natural that armours will cater to their needs over the smaller WMA circles.

just some thoughts on this, not meant as a bash on the SCA which is a sport IMHO.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[JeffGentry]

J Romandell

I know what you mean i have been looking for a good Gambeson, and have not been able to find one that "fit's" like you said most seem very lose and then when you go to Vom Tag, or Ochs they bind in the arm's and shoulder's, I do agree with what Brian said about the SCA being the biggest consumer of armour that is being used, so most make armour to fit the need's/rule's of the SCA, which is totaly useless to us, and that which is fairly accurate is extremely expensive.

Hopefully this will change in the not so distant future.




Jeff

[Jason Romandell]

I am fully aware of the problems within the SCA ruleset. I think like so many of us in the WMA, I am a veteran of that group. I was commenting however on the over all lack of commitment to quality in armor as opposed to weapons. I have seen videos of helmets sliding around on heads and the caliper on leg armor so grand that fighters are waddeling around halfswording one and another.

Then I look at the historical examples of gracful curves and economic construction and think we can do better.

Oh and my cure for the common gmabeson was to find a beautiful woman that had a thing for Vego Mortenson in the LOTR movies who can sew. We are currently working on a period possitive gambeson. Question is, do I really stuff it with horse hair?

J

[Brian Hunt]

Hi J,

I understand what you are saying, and what I am saying is that the lowest common denominator usually wins, in this case the SCA's armour standards due to the size of their group vs. WMA's. I certainly won't argue with you about the lack of quality in most armour, but there are a few smiths out there turning out beatiful museum quality pieces, but they cost an arm and a leg as befits a properly hot raised sallet and bevor, hot raised hour glass gauntlets, single piece hot raised greaves, properly done hand fluting, etc.

As in all things, you get what you pay for.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Jason Romandell]

Hot Raised hourglass gauntlets, thats sexy. And ya lowest common demo works too much like a charm. Funny thing is is that hot metal works easier. Cold forging is a pain in the butt, esp in stainless....not accurate at all but too many lazy fellows out there. The first guy to come up with simple armour made right at a decent price wins. Its all taht fancy edging and brass work that costs.

There is a video out there from the Leeds museum were one of their smiths hammers out a sallet from a single piece of metal. That dude was so fast at it, I sat in my seat with my jaw in my lap at his total offhanded manner. I need a forge.

[Casper Bradak]

Hehe gambesons are a pain. I bought a revival clothing gambeson. They tout an authentic design, and even include pics of authentic gambesons and patterns, all very form fitting in appearance, with a strong waist. The revival ones don't come with a waist (they told me it was to cater to the modern reenactor, most of whom, as we know, don't emphasise fitness).
So, it wouldn't fit in my cuirass. I had to get it tailored by a furniture upholsterer.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Yes I aquired one myself, and have tried training in it, but the shoulders are not wide enough for me and there is also no waist in mine either. I am interested though in how you had it tailored as I am looking to do the same, it was a furniture maker you had do it--? was it expensive?- thanks, Aaron

[Casper Bradak]

Yes I aquired one myself, and have tried training in it, but the shoulders are not wide enough for me and there is also no waist in mine either. I am interested though in how you had it tailored as I am looking to do the same, it was a furniture maker you had do it--? was it expensive?- thanks, Aaro

I had to have a furniture upholsterer do it, because no tailor would work on it due to its thickness. He basically just cut a big chunk off each side to form a waist, as in the old pics, where I specified, and stitched it up. I turned it inside out, and marked a V shape on each side to cut out, to form a waist to my measurements. It turned out well. It actually looks like a period gambeson now. I think it may have been about $20.
I have to do some more work on it though. I can't cut the arms down, but they're too bulky for my arm harness. I need to figure out how to remove some of the stuffing. The stuffing is my second biggest complaint. It's too thick and heavy IMO. Even though it's all natural, it doesn't breathe due to the bulk.

[JeanryChandler]

Where did you get all-natural material for your gambeson? I've been searching all over and everything I can find as far as moving blankets etc. are polyester / cotton blends....

Jr

[Casper Bradak]

It's from revival clothing, I don't know where they get their stuff. It's full of cotton batting, if I remember correctly. Maybe that's something you can find that would be used for stuffing pillows or quilts?

[Brian Hunt]

If you are going to do a stuffed gambeson, search for raw or 100 percent cotten batting. That way you get a natural fiber without the polyester fill. Another way to go is to use natural linen for your inner and outer shell, or use 25 to 30 layers of linen without any batting, or use 100 percent wool for your batting in the form of a blanket or raw wool stuffed into sewn tubes, using linen for the shell or outer parts of your garment. The linen breathes well, and the wool will actually wick mosture away from the linen.

Hope this helps some, if you want a link to a good store for linen let me know.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Shane Smith]

Brian and others really hit the high points. Re-enactors do tend to be a bit heavier on average than martial artists in my experience. There are more of them to buy clothing and armour than we WMA practitioners. Therefore, they get what they need and we get what's left over in many cases. Thats sad but often true.

I had a local armourer make my original harness and while it fits well enough, it aint pretty or too terribly historically-accurate. It was affordable however. That was important at the time. I have commisioned a new harness with Mercenary's Tailor and if the pieces I have received so far are to be representative of the rest to come, it's going to be quite nice for the price and a very big step up in fit and finish and historical accuracy.Will it be museum grade? No. I can't afford that right now. It will be munitions grade in finish and fairly historically accurate besides. As hard as Matt and I are on our equipment, durability and value for the dollar counts for much as long we can move in a historically-accurate manner in it. I'll report back as my new kit continues to take shape. It's looking good and the components fit me well at this point.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Folks, I just finished ordering a harness from Illusion Armoring- I should have it around the end of September- (super excited) - I ordered the German Gothic Harness from the period suits section. So far they have been super to deal with answering all of my very numerous questions. They also have a sweet layaway program which lets you pay on it as you can until the suit nears completion.

I will report back on all the details and the fit, finish etc, of the suit when it comes in,(can't wait)- Aaron