Meisterhauen

[Jake_Norwood]

So I've been working on the meisterhauen lately, meaning the 5 that Ringeck talks about, based on Hans L.

It seems to me that the "Volerica" effect (the in des effect of deflecting and striking in a single motion) is only do-able agains oberhauen and a lateral strike (mittelhau) to one's right side. Do the meisterhauen "work" against cuts other than oberhauen? If so, how?

[Guest]

Good question. Most of my (admittedly limited) study of Ringeck agrees with your observation. He seems to mostly focus on countering cuts from the right side. I geuss this makes sense as most right handers cut best and most from the right. But what about those wacky left handed guys? No doubt someone here can shed more light on this than I.

[Guest]

Ajke
I thouth in Provo you and I discussed my interpretation that Vadi's Volarica may refer to an overall concept of counter-striking & parrying simultaneously and not just in the case of a donward vertical cut, but any attack as with the Meisterhau?

[Richard Strey]

@Matt: I don't see much of a difference fighting left- or righthanders, considering we're talking about a twohanded weapon here. You'll have a bit of a difference in power and reach, but other than that... This is of course valid only for as long as you keep both hands on the hilt. Halfswording against a lefthander might be interesting, with the Ort on the "wrong" side!

[Jake_Norwood]

We did, John. What I'm saying is "how do you do it against a non-oberhau?" The body mechanics of "counter-striking & parrying simultaneously" seems improbable on most non-oberhau. Is there a meisterhau against a rising diagonal cut? A hip-level mittelhau? A rising sheittelhau? See my question?

Jake

[Randall Pleasant]

Jake Norwood:

Is there a meisterhau against a rising diagonal cut?

Yes! The Krumphau and the Scheitelhau can be used to counter an Unterhau. The Scheitelhau breaks the Alber guard. If all things are equal (yea, right!) because of the shorter distance a Scheitelhau to the head should connect before a rising diagonal cut.

In regard to the Krumphau Ringeck states:

This is how you should strike the Krumphau at the hands. When he attacks you from his right side with an Oberhau or <u>Unterhau</u>, jump out of the strike with your right foot towards his left side and with crossed hands strike against his hands using the point.

[Guest]

Jeepers, Jake. I showed you three of those in our one on one session on that Fri. We also worked them in the thrid day class.

JC

[Jake_Norwood]

John and Randall-

Okay...you're not listening. I know the counters your speaking of. I know that those cuts are "meisterhauen." But none of the counters that Randall mentioned involve "simultaneous deflection of the attacking blade and striking the opponent" as we see in the oberhau variations or in "volerica."

Make sense? I feel like I'm asking one thing and everyone is trying to answer something else. The key here is SIMULTANEOUS DEFLECTION/PARRYING/BLOCKING and ATTACK in ONE FLUID MOTION. Do any of these exist below the belt or shoulders? I'm thinking not...I'm not saying that I don't know counters that use the cuts called meisterhauen to deal with lower attacks.

Jake

[Richard Strey]

Jake asks: "Do any of these [SIMULTANEOUS deflections/hits] exist below the belt or shoulders?"
I think not. For this, I see two reasons:
1. If the opponents blade comes up from below, I can hardly think of a way to get into a bind that deflects the blade and inflicts a serious wound at the same time, as I'll only make contact somewhere around the legs. Any such action that comes up in my mind deflects first and *then* wounds, although it may happen in one fluent motion.
The only exception I remember is a plate in Talhoffer, where he sticks his blade into the opponent's thigh and deflects a rising cut at the same time, or some such. I'd have to look that up, though.
2. Any rising cut or falling cut to the lower part of the body will inevitably have a lower range than an Oberhau. Why come up with some risky master technique when I can simply step out and stick my sword in his face? <--- This, IMHO, being the simpler and more important argument. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Edits: The last part was essentially said before by Randall, although in my book, "because of the shorter distance a Scheitelhau to the head should connect before a rising diagonal cut" is not enough, while "my Scheitelhau splits his skull while his rising diagonal cut will fall short" is! <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
Jake, you may call me a smartass but: There is no such thing as a "rising Scheitelhau". The "Scheitel" is the parting (on top of your head, where the hair decides whether it wants to go left or right). I want to see you hit that spot from below! <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Jake_Norwood]

Jake, you may call me a smartass but: There is no such thing as a "rising Scheitelhau". The "Scheitel" is the parting (on top of your head, where the hair decides whether it wants to go left or right). I want to see you hit that spot from below!

Smartass... <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

I felt it was easier than saying "rising vertical false-edge cut from alber."

Jake

[Jeffrey Hull]

That is why I made up a name for a perpendicular Unterhau: I started calling it a Wahlhau - whale-hew - for lack of better, imagining a breeching whale from beneath the water. However, I was thinking that the Einhorn - unicorn - of Meyer (I think) might fit this - however, it seems like he uses this only to describe the fleeting apex of a transition. Any comments? JH

[TimSheetz]

Hi Jake,

I have thought about this for a bit and initially I figured that their couldn't be a meisterhau (in des pary/cut)... and I still do...

but I think there is something there that I'd consider a Meistercut.. and that is when cutting from below your arms/hands lead the weapon far more than from a oberhau. An 'in des' meisterhau actually would "parry/cut" vs the leading arm of the unterhau.

Think of a tail guard and a cut coming up from it... what leads the blade? the attackers arms - leaving the elbow and forearm and hands vulnerable to a simultaneous counter.

So I think that from Vom tag you can throw a 'meisterhau' at an unterhau, but due to the mechanics of it, the meisterhau impacts their arms... there is no blade to deflect... unless you are in another guard :
If in tail guard, you can deflect and hit your attacker, maybe just with the point and maybe it turns into a thrust. I think you'd catch the unterhau on the strong of your sword and your point would be in their lower blossen (openings).. I am thinking in the abdominal region.

Wish I could run this exhaustively through drills to test it, but I don't have someone here for that... I leave that to you and your 20+ guys to figure out!

If I have misued terms, someone please correct me (if you actually REALLY know )

Thanks,

Tim Sheetz

[Randall Pleasant]

Jake

I understand your question now. However, keep in mind that what is really good about using the Krumphau and the Scheitelhau against an unterhau is that they are single fluid motion attacks that <u>do not</u> have to simultaneously deflect/parry the adversary's blade. In other words, if you cut the adversary before he cuts you then you don't need to parry his blace.

[Jake_Norwood]

Randall, I'm glad that we're on the same page now. This:

However, keep in mind that what is really good about using the Krumphau and the Scheitelhau against an unterhau is that they are single fluid motion attacks that do not have to simultaneously deflect/parry the adversary's blade. In other words, if you cut the adversary before he cuts you then you don't need to parry his blace.

Of course I am very familiar with. I was simply looking for something else. I see that I so far as the lot of us can tell I was right at the outset. Thanks.

Jake

[Jeffrey Hull]

JN:

Do you find that the Krumphau must over-reach to counter an Unterhau? If not, then do you have a preferred "launch" for it (such as deepening stance, back-step, cross-step, so forth).

BTW: I should have written "Walhau" as the correct spelling for that name I like to use - please forgive my spelling mistake, guys.

JH