Art of the Sword... or Art of the Pen?

[Jadon K. Pennell]

Hi there, I've been browsing the wealth of research presented on the ARMA main page, ironically enough found by chance through a Goolge images search for '14th Century Arms and Armor'.

While a vast majority of the users here appear to be serious or at least hobbist Swordsmen, if that's the appropriate term, I however, most cetinatly am not, I've perhaps put in a handful of hours during drama recitals with stage-fencing, which is signifigantyl different from any form of actual combat.

My question is, I'm an artist of moderate talent in the idea of Frazatta and Brom, and a writer of some degree of skill, My genre of choice is Traditional/Steampunk fantasy (Think Castlevania or Tolkien for theme reference) So swordplay and fencing play a heavy role in both the writing and the pencil sketched desgin of characters.

My problem lies with the need for a practical blade that is still 'romantic' enough in the eyes of the layman to grab his attention visually, afterall if you were to show your average, Conan the Barbarian fan a true to form Longsword or Rapier he'd scoff at it being 'flimsy' or 'Plain' compared to the over-dressed monstrosity Ahhnuld wields.

I woudl honestly appriciate any advice or references you could give me on making a weapon belivable, It's incredably difficult to find any definate generic guidelines for the length, width and thickness of any type of blade, nor the compisition and functional qualities of a practical crosspiece or hand guard of sorts; and it makes my drawing and writing difficult to do with any manner of belivability.
As such I'm also fond of 'heaiver' blades, such as a Bastard Sword or Schivonia, somethign with enough heft to potentially cleave a skull, but still be sutible for actual defense and parrying when called for, so finding information on such specific weapons is hard.

Any aid you could render to make my efforts more historically sound, as I'm working on a Lovecraftian Horror/Adventure story set in roughly 1456 AD, I'd be much appriciative, Finding properly presented examples of weapons and armors from that period has just about driven me to my wits end. I'd be willing to post a few of my stylized concept sketches, if that would be helpful.

Thanks... and sorry for the long-winded post, I tend to rattle on at the mouth when it's late.

[Joachim Nilsson]

Hi Jadon, and welcome to the forums! Concept sketches would be of great help yes. For a solid reference on historical swords I recommend you to get a hold of Ewart Oakeshott's "Records of the Medieval Sword" -a great reference book when it comes to historical examples.

Otherwise just drop off any specific questions you have right here and I'll do my best to try to answer them.

Oh, I'd also like to hear a little bit more about this Lovecraftian Horror/Adventure story you're working on. But we can handle that via PM's.

Best regards,

[Jadon K. Pennell]

Thanks!

My biggest issue is the actual proper size of a Bastard Sword at the moment, I've read they varied anywhere from 33 to 44 inches in blade length, but that doesnt tell me anything in how long the hilt shoudl be nor the crosspiece. Also, as I tend to 'stylize' the period character slightly (It is fiction, afterall) The speciufic character I'm currently working on stands just a smidge over 6' tall, probably Six foot One and a half or so (Which is actually two inches shorter then my real height, thus my confusion)

For starters, what's a good length and width for someone that tall? his concept cketch has him with a fairly wide-bladed weapon, that pobably measures a good 55" from tip to pommel, the blade if placed point down had the pommel resting just beneath his ribcage, and the blade tapered to a width of about equal to 2.5" at midpoint, similar to how a gladius tapered down (But without the leafing at the tip)

He's supposed to be, in style, half power half finiesse, so would a Shcivonia (Which I may erronoulsy view as sort of a 'Heavy Rapier' with it's duelit inspired basket hilt and desgin) be more suited to him for an Western Europe background?

[Joachim Nilsson]

My biggest issue is the actual proper size of a Bastard Sword at the moment, I've read they varied anywhere from 33 to 44 inches in blade length, but that doesnt tell me anything in how long the hilt shoudl be nor the crosspiece.

Hilts are usually within the vicinity of 10-15 inches for these types of swords. The are historical examples of more long hilted ones, and most of those stems from the late 15th/early 16th Century.

For starters, what's a good length and width for someone that tall? his concept cketch has him with a fairly wide-bladed weapon, that pobably measures a good 55" from tip to pommel, the blade if placed point down had the pommel resting just beneath his ribcage, and the blade tapered to a width of about equal to 2.5" at midpoint, similar to how a gladius tapered down (But without the leafing at the tip)

Well, historically speaking, the only one I've come across so far that designates any specific swordlength in regards to height is Filippo Vadi. He was a fightmaster in Italy who got his work published c1490. In it[Arte Gladitoria Dimicandi] he mentions at one point that a sword should, when placed with the tip on the ground, reach with its pommel to you armpit. It is most likely though that he was discussing a specific type of sword within a specific context; i.e. a sword for judicial combat.

The length you have specified isn't outside the limits of historical swords though. There are historical examples that could well match your sword in length. Although at the farther extremes of those kinds of lengths the terminology shifts slightly -more towards proper two-handers. Physically speaking there is an upper limit of when it becomes a full-on necessity to exclusively handle a sword with two hands. But it's hard to state any specific rules without getting too speculative.

When discussing width we enter a whole different ballpark. Basically because the modern illustrative arts differ slightly from reality when depicting swords. Most modern fantasy art I've come across tends to overdo it grossly on the width of the blades. As a reference I can mention that the widest historical blade I personally have heard of measured IIRC 2.6 inches at the cross. Most crosses usually measure roughly 8-10 inches.

For ease of reference I'm providing you with a couple of links to some modern recreations of historical pieces:

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/johnsson/sword-museum-svante.htm

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/johnsson/sword-museum-stmaurice.htm

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/johnsson/sword-museum-tritonia.htm

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/johnsson/sword-museum-brescia.htm

as well as a couple of more generic types (representing different swords from oakeshott's typology):

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/nextgen/sword-medieval-talhoffer-xva.htm

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/nextgen/sword-medieval-landgraf-xvii.htm

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/nextgen/sword-medieval-munich-xviiib.htm

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/nextgen/sword-medieval-regent-xviiia.htm

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/nextgen/sword-medieval-viceroy-xxa.htm

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/nextgen/sword-medieval-danish-2-hander.htm

These were all designed by sword-smith and researcher Peter Johnsson, one of the world's biggest authorities on historical European bladed weaponry. I know that some of the models I picke dout for you doesn't match up with the desired time period, but I included them to give you a vide range of blades that somehow touche dupon that which we have been discussing. Judging from the description you've giving me so far it almost sounds to me like perhaps some kind of oversized version of the Svante sword would be your best bet. Keep in mind though that, aside from Vadi, there really doesn't exist any sources that I know of that stipulates that when you're of a certain height you should/must have a sword of a certain length.

I'm also providing you with a link to an online presentation to Oakeshott's typology:

http://bjorn.foxtail.nu/oakeshott_eng.htm

He's supposed to be, in style, half power half finiesse, so would a Shcivonia (Which I may erronoulsy view as sort of a 'Heavy Rapier' with it's duelit inspired basket hilt and desgin) be more suited to him for an Western Europe background?

Trust me, you can get all the finesse you want out of a bastard sword or a long sword. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> Take the Next generation Talhoffer for instance. I own that particular swords and it's one of the most viscious, quick and agile swords I've handled. I've also had the pleasure to handle the Svante and that's one of my all-time favorite swords. It's weight (when printed on paper) belies its agility. You see, when dealing with swords, weight and mass is a relative things. The Svante weighs in at 4 lbs (which is close to the upper limit for swords of that variety) but you don't feel the weight at all when handling it. It's all about balance and distribution of mass. The Svante is as the Talhoffer; quick, vicious and powerful

And you slightly of on the Schiavona. It's a regular sword.
Albeit a basket hilted one.

Best regards,

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jarod

It appears Joachim has done a good job with covering the swords so i figured i would give you some links to reproductions of historic armour in reality some of the actual historic pieces looked as good and better than some fantasy.

armour from illusion armouring

here are some full harness's

Robert McPherson


If you get into some of the armour that was gilted and engraved there was some very beautiful armour being produced through out history.

here is another link.


Via armouries

It is a common misconception that armour was just plain and functional with no embellishment, there is historic evidence from helmets and such that they were painted with coats of arms and sometimes even covered in velvet, some even had very elaborate engraving on the breast plate.


Jeff

[Joachim Nilsson]

Yeah, Via Armorari is a really good company. Albert Collins is a really talented armourer. A Swedish ARMA colleague of mine own a full 15th Century gothic suit of armour that he's made.

[Jadon K. Pennell]

Wow.

I just looked at the images and page for the Svante, and that is one impressive blade, it's exactly what I was aiming for (and apparently, missed) with the sketch, while it's definatly slimmer then the intial drawing (which to scale with the images of the Swordsmith....was probably closer to 4" in width) it's probably the same length, if a bit logner.

So Yes, for hsi particular blade, I may refit the sketch for a Svante-varient, though I won't carbon-copy it to the smallest angle.

Ah, and good to know about hte Schiavona, I simply figures the extra weigh ofthe basket hilt migth set the balence lower like it does on Stage-foils, ah, my ignorence is showing.

As for his outfit, well once i redraw his sword, I'll post an image if thats within the limits of the fourm (Probably a link, a 600x800 image is a page stretcher) but he was wearing a leather jerkin of sorts, sleevless with a open collar and long tails buitl for run-off like a cloak you'd weapon like a jacket, along with a bit of my own 'creations' - namely a matchign pair of Knee/elbow length gloves and boots of the common, cuffed variety, set with flexable recessed plates along them, to work as protection, or a emergency parry (Though parryign anythign with your wrist isnt a good idea) As well as a sort of leather and steel 'guard' that covered the lower section of his thighs.

Under the jerkin was a light breastplate, the simple sort that's only the fore section, rahter then a full curiass, and a shirt of soft-link chainmail.

Hmmm, I don't think I'll have to alter his genral 'attire' much, but the sword definatly needs a workover.

[Joachim Nilsson]

I just looked at the images and page for the Svante, and that is one impressive blade, it's exactly what I was aiming for (and apparently, missed) with the sketch, while it's definatly slimmer then the intial drawing (which to scale with the images of the Swordsmith....was probably closer to 4" in width) it's probably the same length, if a bit logner.

So Yes, for hsi particular blade, I may refit the sketch for a Svante-varient, though I won't carbon-copy it to the smallest angle.

I'm glad I coul dbe of any help to you. An dtrust me: the Svante is a beast. It is as awesome as it looks.

Ah, and good to know about hte Schiavona, I simply figures the extra weigh ofthe basket hilt migth set the balence lower like it does on Stage-foils, ah, my ignorence is showing.

It's all about the distribution of mass. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> What "extra" weight the sword gains from the basketed hilt is counter-acted by the blade -as per any proper fighting blade.

Keep us updated on your progress and be sure to check back if you have any more questions.

[JeanryChandler]

Greetings from a fellow fantasy writer and Lovecraft fan.

You might want to keep in mind that contrary to popular misconceptions, most swords made when they were still being used to kill people were balanced quite close to the hilt, regardless of the complexity of that hilt (i.e. a simple cross to a basket hilt). European swords made from the Medeival through Renaissance periods tended to have a point of balance (often abbreviated as "POB" by sword collectors) no more than 3-7 inches from the cross-guard. That was the whole point of the pommel, to provide a counterweight to the blade so that the sword felt, to paraphrase Ewart Oakeshotte, like a nicely balanced fishing-rod in the hand.

Weight is a big issue with any functional sword, which was one reason they also tended be pretty utilitarian and simple in design back in the day. Just a pointer, to anyone even moderatley knowledgable about historical martial arts (and there are increasing numbers of us out there), all the wierd extra additions to blades which seem to be so popular with fantasy artists, like spikes, hooks, dragon heads, fangs and such, instantly identify a sword as a cartoonish joke. Same with overly wide blades, very heavy ricassos (the sometimes unsharpened section at the base of the blade) or overly thick blade cross-sections.

Steel is heavy and even small protrusions can add weight and throw off the balance. Any extra weight which was added to historical weapons was there because it was necessary. Any whimsical protrusion is very likely to get in the way in combat. So try to keep all those tentacles, bat wings and dragons teeth to a minium <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

IMHO, if you want to be impressive, emphasize the brutal functionality of the real thing. Think butcher shop rather than "He-Man, Masters of the Universe". To give you an idea what a real sword is actually like, I reccomend finding some test cutting videos, Cold Steel knives gives away a free DVD which demonstrates a variety of test cutting experiments on meat and bones (among other things) with their swords. It would be an eye opener.

When it comes to action, and the violence which naturally goes along with it, the flashy extras might be impressive initially, but it's the simple power of a deadly weapon used effectively which really hits home. Think of the difference between say, guns carried by minor characters in any generic action flick with a dozen laser finders, extra clips, and flashlights attatched to them, compared to the simple power of the revolver of Clint Eastwood's "man with no name" character in The Good The Bad and the Ugly.

Also, if you are seeking good inspiration, ironically the original Conan books by Robert E Howard are really not so bad, actually like many true classics (such as Tolkein) quite closely informed by history compared to a lot of modern fantasy. Unlike in the later Conan comics and films, the hero does things like wear armor into battle whenever he can and relies on stealth and cunning to defeat his foes, rather than sheer "brawn".

Jr

[s_taillebois]

M. Pennel,
Might also consider using some of the lit. of the general period. Useful for the speech mannerisms and other visuals. Such as the "Morte de Arthur", "Fairy Queen", legends about the El Cid, and "The Canterbary Tales". Also, read up on people like Joan Pusselle (Joan of Arc), King Henry, and Charles the bold. Good for historical references and for some of the motivations your characters might follow.

[Casper Bradak]

Since I didn't notice it mentioned, our source material is full of sketches of the preferred weapons of the time. Check the manuals sections, and the weapons glossary.