Working Out in the Gym in order to fight better.

[Gene Tausk]

Fascinating discussion.

I completely concur with your comments re: Farmer Burns and Tim Sheet's comments re: plyometrics. I have never been one for weightlifting and the exercises advocated by Farmer Burns and plyometrics have always served me well, not only with swordfighting but martial arts in general.

Interesting comments about bodybuilders.

Concur as well with your comments about the Amish. Nothing beats physical labor to build "real" muscle as well as core muscle. Another interesting side comment which relates to your experience: when I lived in Russia, I ended up walking about 3 miles/day because that is how most people get around. Although I had a car, the city (Moscow) was built for pedestrians and the excellent underground Metro system. That's just the way it is. When I returned to the States, I was amazed that I was walking much faster than my friends who were now complaining that they wanted to "drive somewhere." I never lost my Moscow "walking muscles" and to this day it doesn't bother me to walk from one end of downtown Houston to another (here in H-town, we have an underground tunnel system because of the heat) while my friends and co-workers complain about "the distance."

I am more than happy living in 21st century America, but there are still many things we can learn from other cultures.


-------------->>>>>>>>>>>>>gene tausk
SFS
Study Group Leader - Houston ARMA Southside

[Bill Tsafa]

I suppose that a persons fight style is a big factor. I try to use all the techniques of Lichenuer, but my most successfull manuver is Bind/ Wind/ Thrust , in that order. I also favor the sqint-strike/thrust. My execution requires the use of the legs to set aside my opponents blade and then to thrust. This is in line with Licheneur who advises to use the strength of the whole body not just the arms. If my opponet blocks me I will continue forward and graple to distabilize, then half-sword. Or perhaps I will push on my opponent above the elbow with my off hand and trip him over my leg while keeping my crossguard against his blade. My aim (win or loose) is to end the encounter in less then one minute. I will not try to beat your blade or strike you with the edge. I seek to bind/thrust. In my style legs is everything. I also do some running and do have some endurace, but probably not as much as some other people, so I do not run after my opponet if he starts to dance around, I walk, maybe spring at the last second. In the sparring that I do, there are 15 rounds and each round ends when a valid strike or thrust is made. Valid means hard enough so that it would create a wound in a real fight. We use broomsticks covered with pipefoam and wear motorcycle helmets. When the round ends, we back up and start again. We do the same thing Lance Chan does, if you ever saw his videos. By no means do I win all the time, but I win often with my combination of bulldozer tactics and some help from my good friend Licheneur <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

Allow me to present some numbers just to make things more clear and put things in prospective. As I mentioned earlier I had stoped lifting weights for about two years. This brought me to a level as if I never trained with weights. On my first squat day I was able to squat 225 lbs 4 sets of 5 reps. I would say this is what you can expect from anyone. If you never trained with weights this is what you could probobly do. So this is the base level. After a four months of training with 4 sets of 10 reps I was able to squat 275 for 4 sets of 5 reps. My body weight was pretty much the same, I gave up some fat and gain some muscle. Most of the strength gain came from gaining better control of the muscle that was already there. This is 50 lbs of additional pushing power when I wind and push forward with my sword/stick. Perhaps I gained some additional fight experiance too in the time that elapsed, but I certainly did not loose any skill. I just gained an extra 50 lbs of pushing power for me to use as I wish. A year after that I am now squating 365 for 4 sets of 5 reps. That is another 90 lbs over what I was doing before. My bodyweight went up 10 lbs. I am now weigh 210 at 5'10". The amount of pushing power is no match for someone who is at the base level of only squating 225 lbs. I can simply run them over in the bind. I also made similar portionate gains in my upper body. On bench press I went from 185 to 225 to now 255 for 4 sets of 5 reps. Now am sure most of you have seen my pictures from my website, I am not some big hulking guy. In fact I look very averge. That is largly becuse the size and shape a persons muscles is genetic. I look only a tad bit bigger then when I started out, but so much stronger. This strenth gain could not have come from doing any own body resistance excerises. Not even 4 sets of 10 can produce such results. You need to do heavy weight for low reps.

Now I most emphisize one thing. The strength gains I made in under two years were after a layoff of 2 years. Prior to that I had trained for over 15 years straight. Once you have already reached a certain strength level, it is much easier to get back to it. If you start weight training for the first time, it will take you longer to get to that level.

The information I present here is so we can discuse further and compare, contrast and exchange ideas. I maintain the highest respect for what you other gentlemen.

[jeremy pace]

I did a 4 yr stint in the Marine Corps and let me say nothing has put me in better physical conditioning for swordfighting than that. I played football, did weight training, and wrestled before that and thought i was in good shape for whatever came my way (and muscled up real nice <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" /> ) but after 5 mile runs in utilites and boots, obstacle courses galore, and a never ending pushup fest i was faster and tougher than i could have ever hoped to be..... but i couldnt lift as much. I had whiplike reflexes ( you know, how you can catch stuff thrown at you.... like golfballs and such out of the air with ease) and could strike with some severe power (i broke 3 swords in my first month back... expensive training) but i weighed almost 30 pounds less and was disappointed when i went to do my hardcore weight training. I remember my Sr. Drill Instructor said, "If you came to get built then get out. You are going to lose all that extra weight and build good muscle. Lean is mean boys."
My point is; we aren't all designed to be heavyweight monsters capable of crushing a man's skull with our bicep. I have been fighting for 11 years now and i can compare the me before the marines to the me after and can say no matter how much work you put into the gym it will not make you a good fighter.

And to pick up on the ufc bit.... Royce Gracie: wiry thin guy who can twist big slow guys into knots and make them cry. I still weight train, but in moderation. I focus on the core groups and do high reps low weight and endurance training. I think the best type of training for being a swordsman is that of boxers. Also, I fight big mean guys in the sca on occasion and can pummel with the best of them, but i can also move around and use those reflexes. (and if you ever wanna see where endurance comes in handy then suit up in full plate and fight as the hot sun cooks you)

Good luck in whatever you all decide, but i think Aaron and i are in agreement.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Bill, this is going to come off a little snappy but stick with me for a bit..

again I have to disagree, your stats, (which I think are very good) are not all that important to the discussion. I could list all my bench max's etc...(which were more than 500lbs at one time), are still not that encompassing when talking about fighting. If you think that you are going to push people around because of a higher squat total, than I am sorry bro. No offense, but you have not been fighting the right people.

I understand in some repects what you are trying to say, and your knowledge of Lichtenauer's fighting is fine, all that is great, again though fighting is about more than just "using the legs" etc...it's so much more than all the things you have been listing.

To repeat though, the max anmount of DEAD weight that a given body part/parts can hoist, move, or pull does not equate into fighting ability. Granted, and I said this right away it CAN be part of the overall picture, but there are just to many problems that this kind of training will give you in the long run:

So-just what is my position then?- well like Tim, Gene, and some others mentioned it's Skill, Experience,Cunning,Agression,Focus, mixed in with a little luck- training is some weight lifting-(done at higher reps mind you)-polymetrics, core body training, endurance training and anaerobic training, with just plain old repetition for drilling movements-

Something else too that I have to add is that you without a doubt can without a problem get the same results with body weight training- I still do, and know several others that do it regularly no problems- no offense if I gave any like I said before at least we are all training in whatever fashion we see fit- that's what makes us who we are as a group-do'ers and not talk'ers- Aaron

[Bill Tsafa]

I have been inspired by the constructive debate to investigate this further. The problem with longsword fighting is that the competition and judging is not standardized, every study group makes its own rules. I have decided to take some Italian Sabar classes. Starting this Thursday (1/5/06) I will take the first of five instrucion classes. In a few weeks I will be able to spar with people at the local fencing school. I am sure that it will be many months before I am good enough to be competitive and be able to judge how much of a diffrence brute strength can make when applied with skill. I do not know if they use any grapeling methods in Saber, but I will find out . I do not know much about Italian Saber fighting at the moment. I was advised by the instructor over the phone that of all the styles of classical fencing that they teach Saber is the closest to longsword. The fighting rules and judging are standardized so it will be a better way to judge.

I had been wanting to expand my knowlege of swordmanship beyond longsword and this seems like a great time to do it. Perhaps I can interest a few people in the class to try longsword down the road.

I'll reserect this thread in a few months when I have some solid information.

[John_Clements]

Modern saber is about finesse. You simply can't wield their simulators with any real strength, it's all from the hand and fingers, not even the elbow let alone the shoulder or h whole body as with earlier earnest fencing methods (you are not trying to really cut or stab someone with a real blade after all). The modern tool is just too light and thin that any force would really sting painfully, not to mention disturb the form and style of the game. As for body contact or even free-hand use in grappling and wrestling ala' Medieval or Renaissance fencing, forget it: not allowed, too dangerous, out of context, and entirely unfamiliar.

Gotta run

JC

[Gene Tausk]

Bill:

If you are talking about Olympic style sabre fencing, then you are talking about a very restrictive sport that has nothing in common with ARMA or authentic historical fencing. There is no grappling, the weapon used in sabre fencing is not a weapon at all but a replica of a sabre that is incredible lightweight and in no way represents a true sabre. All attacks and defenses are on a linear strip which does not allow for traversing movement (hence unrealistic movement). As stated, it is a very restrictive sport far removed from any type of historical fencing or martial foundation. The "advantage" of this system is, of course, that it provides a set of artifical rules that can be impartially "scored."

I have never fenced with any Olympic style weapon (foil, epee, sabre) so I am in no position to judge as to whether "brute strength" will help you in this regard. However, I have seen competitive Olympic fencers and their training methodology seems to focus on linear speed, which makes sense given the rule structure of Olympic fencing.

I wish you luck with your endevour, but I would ask you to remember that (once again, if this is Olympic style sabre fencing) what you are learning has nothing to do with ARMA. Both John Clements and Stacy Clifford (a former Olympic style sabre fencer) have written about the restrictions of sabre fencing and why it has no applications to ARMA.

Also, I want to correct a possible misconception. You stated that "The problem with longsword fighting is that the competition and judging is not standardized, every study group makes its own rules." ARMA's purpose is not to engage in competition. If there is to be competition, then there naturally needs to be rules and restrictions which leads to an artificial structure which does not simulate actual combat. One of ARMA's purposes is the re-creation of European fighting arts as they existed for the battlefield. This means that when ARMA members spar each other, they do so with a full range of techniques which allows for, as much as reasonably possible, open combat. We view such sparring as learning experiences, not competition to determine who is "better" or to get a higher "ranking."

It was the formation and creation of artificial systems such as Olympic fencing that led to the necessity of ARMA in the first place. So, once again, keep in mind that what you will be learning in the sabre fencing class is not related to ARMA. If you find that "brute strength" is of assistance to you in sabre fencing, or if you find that it makes no difference or is a hinderance, please remember that your observations will be limited only to Olympic sabre fencing, not ARMA or historical fencing.

Good luck in any case.


---------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
SFS
Study Group Leader - Houston ARMA Southside

[Bill Tsafa]

I did a little further research and found that their is a considerable diffrence between Olimpic style fencing and classical fencing. Olymic seems more concerned with touching your opponent with the tip before he touches you. The dueling style is also concerned with not being hit.

I do however believe that what you said is correct and that the dueling style saber fencing I will learn will be too restrictive to be of real benefit and as John said, the weapon is too light. However no harm can come from the experiance and it is better to try then not to try.

What you said about ARMA fighting not being standardized in order to make it more realistic is in fact what makes the concept more attractive to me.

[Rod-Thornton]

Bill wrote:
"I did a little further research and found that their is a considerable diffrence between Olimpic style fencing and classical fencing...What you said about ARMA fighting not being standardized in order to make it MORE [emphasis added] realistic is in fact what makes the concept more attractive to me...."

Bill:
Others may correct me, however I believe that classical fencing is also somewhat different then historical fencing, which I interpret to mean what we do under the "ARMA method." To that point, historical fencing as reconstructed in the ARMA method, is, as I understand it, simply a combative discipline to fight well with martially-sound actions using a variety of western edged and non-edged non-projectile weapons. I do not think prize-playing or free-play events serve any competitive sporting purpose, but rather only to demonstrate efficacy of the three T's....namely "technique, training, and talent" as a pragmatic fighter. If I misread your last post, it appears as though you were looking to compete in some fashion.

[Jeremy Martin]

I've taken some sabre fencing, and have enjoyed it. Still continuing to take it as well. Yes, it's closer to long sword than epee or foil, simply because it uses the 'edge'.

However, I doubt very seriously if you'll be able to bring 'brute strength' into the equation. The weapons are simply too light.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Bill, I would also like to say real quick, that I do really appreciate you taking the time to give us your thoughts in terms of working out and all, I hope you don't think that I was trying to berate you or anything, as you took the effort to post the stuff to begin with and that says alot- so thanks, it also spurred some good conversation which may have reached others thinking about similar stuff.

I would really like to see more of us share our workout routines etc...and that way we can take or leave what each of us wants to use or not- which is also what makes ARMA so good- each of us working hard to bring all of us closer to what it may have been like for real. The sparring sessions serve as reminders of this purpose and the goal while always in the back of everyone's mind is hopefully never really achived- that is this "I can stop learning now-since I am the best" kind of thought process- Aaron

[James Sterrett]

I was a sport fencer thoughout my undergrad years and early grad school. Strength is mostly not an issue (not in the way it is in longsword)! My undergrad coach liked to tell the tale of a French Olympic-class fencer from the 1930s, who lost all but thumb and forefinger to a grenade in 1940 - and continued to be a world-class fencer with only two digits. I've never checked this tale, but the point is generally valid. Sport fencing is very much a game of speed, distance, timing, and precision.

That said, those four aspects are all useful in longsword, too, so anything that trains them can't be too bad. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[John_Clements]

It definitely can help with footwork, reflexes, and coordination.

...but then just seriously practicing Renaissance martial arts does that too.

[John_Clements]

I also reccommend seeing the article on the site here about the Myth of Strength.

JC

[Risto Rautiainen]

Someone mentioned that you should train as boxers do, and I think that's a quite good advice. As boxers use weight lifting as a _supplementary_ training method. Plyometrics and core strength is good and can be easily obtained using different weights such as girya. As has been said, it matters how you train. You can do a lot of counter productive things at a gym but you can do a lot good if you do it right. If you want fast explosive power, then you'll need to do the excercises with fast explosive power. You fight as you train.