Sword grip length

[Kevin Peterson]

I have a question about the lenth of the grip on a sword. In almost all of the fechtbuch images that I have seen, it shows swords with longer grips and the hands spread apart. However, Aaron Pynenberg pointed out a quote that he found in Dobringer (he thinks) that states that strikes should be made with the hands close together. It also states that with hands close together that your stikes will be more true with hands together. I feel that I can generate more blade speed with hands spread, but have found some moves where it is easier to do with hands closer together. Looking at the Meyer plates, it shows many instances of strikes with hands spread. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Well...since you mentioned me Kevin, I should add in my own words that yes, there is a quote in Doebringer which addresses the hands being placed together....I do not have said document at this time since I borrowed it to someone in the group- if anyone has it and knows what passage I am referring please add it-

But, having said that I think the actual comment was hands together off the pommel- the pommel acts as the counterweight to the sword, and while some techniques do work better grasping the pommel, Doebringer does say that Licthenauer taught that by having the hands off the pommel- you strike: with more power, on a better trajectory, and do so much "safer"-

So, my opinion is that it depends on the situation, and your personal style-

Kevin and I were doing a specific drill at the time where you start in alber and simply move from alber to vom tag-as a repetative strength/ agility drill- and I wanted him to keep his hands together to work both shoulders, instead of just the one- as he was keeping his left hand on the pommel, pommel being at about chest level and moving back and forth, not really getting much movement out of the left arm/shoulder-

This should clarify the question a tad- Aaron

[JeffGentry]

Hey Aaron

the quote from Doebringer

"know Also that a good fencer should before all know his sword and be able to grip it well with both hand's, between the pommel since you will then be safer than if you did grip it with one hand on the pommel. And you will also strike harder and truer, with the pommel swinging itself and turing in the strike you will strike harder than if you were holding the the pommel. When you pull the pommel in the strike you will not come as perfect or as strongly. For the sword is like a scale, if a sword is large and heavy then the pommel must also be large and heavy to balance it like a scale."

This from Digrassi talking about the division of the sword.

"...And the fourth part (I mean not the tip of the point, but four fingers more within it) is the swiftest and strongest of all the rest: for besides that it is in the circumfrence, which causes it to be swift, it has also four fingers of counter poise (a counter balancing weight)thereby making the motion more forcible."

I think it is similar to what Doebringer is saying, Digrassi is working from the tip instead of the pommel.

Jeff

[Kevin Peterson]

Thanks for the quote, Jeff. It makes much more sense to me now. I was having a hard time getting what Aaron meant and without having the quote to look at it really puzzled me as to why they would say that and yet draw them with hands separated.

Aaron, I wasn't questioning the methods or the drill we were doing, I wanted to get the quote to have as a reference. I should have been more thorough with my post though. Thanks for clarifying. I do agree with you that it is a matter of personal preference, and I can see the value of both ways. But I still wonder that if what the Doebringer said is true that why all the drawings of strikes with the hands separated and even on the pommel.

Kevin

[Aaron Pynenberg]

It's cool to question everything we do...that's just part of your nature, and it helps us to improve together. I know there was no malice in your post (or my response)-no probs bud.

It actually brings up some good points, like maybe how the style had changed since Doebringer's time, were they grasping the pommel back then-probably since they felt it nec. to warn against it- but many times you can see the images in meyer, actually turning the pommel in the hand and applying the edge for better resistance. It's like when we do the touch and press with our blunts, and how turning the edge becomes so important- I guess I have always just assumed they were applying some of these principles in the depiction of the swordsman, turining and winding/binding, using reach and leverage, I just love those drawings for that very reason-they are almost "alive" to me.

[Jake_Norwood]

We had long debate/discussion about this about a year ago on this forum somewhere--might be worth digging up.

I'm a "hand spread apart" man, based on the fact that you see it in more manuals, and the swords of my personal interest are invariably longer-handled. I will also add that there is a good number of "small" items in Doebringer that are contrastably different from many (or all?) other "Liechtenauer" works. Take anything from any one manual with a grain of salt.

BTW, has George Turner, our resident physics guy, weighed in on this mathmatecally?

Jake

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jake

Yea there are a few thing's in Doebringer that are contradictory to later master's and they are usualy very small, like the plough and alber description's.

I know i have done the same type of thing writing one thing while thinking about something else then I go back and look later and realise I described something vice/versa, after all these guy's were human and subject to human error.

Jeff

[Bill Tsafa]

I started out with one hand on the pommol and swiched to the both hands on the true grip. I had two main reasons.

First, I often get in close and favor pommol strikes. You can not strike with the pommol if your hand is covering it.

Second, and this is debatable, I feel that the pommol acts like a lightning rod for vibration and when your hand is on the pommol that vibration gets trasfered into your hand.

[GaryGrzybek]

Hi Bill,

I can't speak for everyone but I rarely see anyone gripping the entire pommel so that it cannot be used. In fact, I've yet to handle a sword than can have it's entire pommel gripped comfortably. Wheel pommels are best gripped partially with maybe only the pinky and ring finger. A properly made sword will allow this with suprising comfort. A common mistake with many scent stopper pommels is that the user will try and grasp the whole thing in their hand. This is possible durring a given technique but may not be the best thing with normal use. I have no problem using pommel strikes with a wide grip.

[GaryGrzybek]

Like you Jake, I like a long grip too. My Albion Svante gives me a huge amount of leverage and control with it's long grip. Lately I find myself getting more use out of my great sword waster for the very same reason. I think it's a matter of personal preference.

[GaryGrzybek]

Bill,

It must be the swords you train with because I never get the vibration you speak of through the pommel.

[Matthew_Anderson]

"First, I often get in close and favor pommol strikes. You can not strike with the pommol if your hand is covering it".

I do a lot of pommel strikes as well, but almost always with my right hand only, after seizing my opponent or his weapon with my left hand like this:



A two-handed pommel strike, without controlling your opponent with your off hand, would be tough to pull off IMO.

[GaryGrzybek]

I definately agree with that Matt but I have manged to pull off a few two handed pommel strikes. The first comes from winding out of kron and the second from stepping deep out of hengen.

[Bill Tsafa]

I only get that vibration durring pell practice.

Reguarding my pommol strikes when I sometime bind and opponent is pushing in a given direction, I will yield in direction that he wants to go by raising my hilt up (plow to crown) and then using the guard to continue to move the blade in the direction that my opponent wanted to go in over my head to the side. From there with both hands still on the grip I bring the pommol straight into his facemask.

I also use one hand pommol stikes durring grappeling but I just wanted to show an example of a twohand pommol strike.

Let me also say that I aknowledge that a wider grip will allow for more leverage/speed. No question there, thats just the phisics of the matter. I still preffer to have the full use of the pommol at any momment.

[philippewillaume]

Personally I use pommel grip with longer swords like a XVIIIe (or blade over 40”) but for shorted blade (39” being the max limit) I tend to use more a Dobringer grip.

I find it easier when teaching people if the have the Dobringer grip because it really promotes correct body motion and placement. In fact if the body is not in the right position at the right place it just plain don’t work

Using the Dobringer way of cutting produces some really impressive cuts as well

Jeff
I am not that sure that Dobringer made a mistake. I think it changed with time.
There is consistency in the naming of the plough like guard and their link to the other master sections of the Dobringer manual is consistent.
May it is worth an other thread by if you work on the breaking of the guard you will see that here is hands position where the scheitel will work better than the schiel regardless if the point of you opponent is towards you or the ground and that is true for the scheil working better than the scheitel for a given range of hands positions.

phil