Armor Question???

[Ray_McCullough]

Hello everyone. I have a Question about the armor in the late 1300s. Some of the art shows a gambeson on the outside of the mail. My question is what was the "norm" for this harness? is there another gambeson under the mail ? is the mail under the padded coat have just linen clothes under it? is that a gambeson or a brigintine? I know that is a lot of ?s But it seemed odd to have arms and legs in plate and only mail and a padded coat for the body. Please help

Thank you

[Neil Bockus]

If I have the right idea of the artworks you're talking about, the breast armor is likely a brigandine, not a gambeson; metallic strips attached to some sort of linen, which covers the strips. It is unlikely that someone would wear plate arm and leg armor, but omit chest protection in favor of leathers. Of course, I'm not as experienced as a lot of the other guys/gals here, and it would help to get their opinions or research results also.

[SzabolcsWaldmann]

That's a difficult question allright <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Normally. The thing worn under Chainmail in the 13th. Century is called Aketon, a three-layered, Linen or Leather, cotton, and linen. ( http://www.matuls.pl/grafika/ikony/pikowaniec1_2.jpg )
Outside, it's a Jack, fabric armour that can be worn independently or in conjunction with chain mail. ( http://www.matuls.pl/grafika/ikony/jackchains1.jpg ). It's also made up of 3 layers, but in the middle it's 15 to 40 layers of raw linen!
If I can take a guess, the Jack was invented to actually protect the mail itself, espetially if it's poor quality. I also believe, that if a Jack was worn, then the Aketon was not so thick, or, not even used, and only a simple linen clothing was taken. Or, this rather warm armour of aketon-mail- and jack was worn in the northern regions. In winter, you could still freeze to death... But in Jerusalem, whoever took a jack was probably cooked alive....

What you mean, with plate on the arms and leg and no plate on the chest but a brigandine, is rather 14th. century, and a bit of the 15th. Why this happened I do not know for sure. Wither big plates for chest were to expensive, or not yet invented, or the Brigandine is a better wear for horsemanship... I own a gothic plate armour and I also had a Brigandine on, and the brigandine was a much better wear. It was not so heavy, and allowed for more movement, while protecting from sword attacks just as well. But, and this is my guess, a plate chest protects better from projectiles, while a brigandine was not, and that's why they abandonet it.

Szab

[Ray_McCullough]

Thanks for the info. What is linen exactly? Is brigintine is linen or leather with plates sown on the back in a overlapping pattern ? Is it true this was mistaken for studded leather ? is this similar to scale armor riveted to leather or are the plates larger? Szab is your brigintine large horizontal plates? I ve seen one like that on the history channel it looked awesome.

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Ray,

linen is a cloth made from the fibers of the flax plant.

Brigadine is a further development of the coat of plates, an armour style worn at the battle of Wisby and was often used in the 14th century. http://www.eskimo.com/~cwn/brig_craig1.html

Scale armour http://www.larp.com/legioxx/squamata.html

hope this helps.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[philippewillaume]

Well, here is the result of my research so far

Brigandine was worn through the 15 and 16 century. We have evidence of proofing against windlass crossbow for brigandine as soon as 1425.
There is different type of brigandine some are borderline coat of plate so it is difficult to know where brigandine starts and when coat of plate stops.

As far as what was worn under the lentner/jupon/gambison whatever you want to call it, is highly debatable. This garment has nothing to do with brigandine.
The padded garment worn out side seems to be ranging from mid 1300 to late 1300
If we believe the charles de blois lentner/gambison it was worn over mail and plate.
So I suspect a simple doublet like and arming doublet will do the trick (I e fustian double with silk-satin).
In this condition, there is no need for a padded garment under the mail.
It is likely than the aketon was worn in earlier stage

The jack (IE 25-31 layer of well worn linen with a buck skin on the chest) seems to have been worn alone and at least been there from early 15 cent

Phil

[Ray_McCullough]

Hey thanks Philip and Brian I like that armour site.

[JeanryChandler]

thas an interesting photo, I saw some surviving harness with chains down the sides of the sleeves like that, it was an aketon or gambeson, a sallet type helmet, a mail coif, steel gauntlets, and these funny chains going down the outside of the aketon. I wonder if they are there just to hold something up or to act as armor against cuts?

Jr

[Brian Hunt]

If you are refering to what I think you are, they are called jack chains. They are used with an arming jack as additional protection for the arms. An arming jack is a very heavily padded gambeson. You can see the complete picture of the previous image here. http://www.wga.hu/art/m/memling/4ursula/36ursu06.jpg

Here is an interesting thread about jack chains. http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=59784

Brian Hunt
GFS

[david welch]

That's the direction Knoxville seems to be heading... Jackchains, elbows and gloves like this:






With a placard, besegews and a helmet.

It looks like it would be good for both armoured, and as safety gear for "heavy" sparring.

[Brian Hunt]

Are you guys looking at going with a sallet, bevor combination for your helm?

Brian Hunt
GFS

[david welch]

It looks like that is a good way to go... but really I think that our helmet is going to wind up being a personal choice.

With a bevor though, it just provides so much protection to your mouth. You can get an arm set and be healed in 6-8 weeks and be back in training and not get hurt financially too bad. But get all your front teeth knocked out and if nothing else the dentist bill would kill you. So I really want to say any helm you want is fine... you just have to be able to wear it over a bevor if it is open faced. I love my great helm, and I even want to wear it over a bevor.

[Brian Hunt]

You might also want to look at a close helm, they are one of the most protective helmets I have ever worn. Built in bevor and gorget, it is the type of helm I build my fencing helmets around.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Bill Welch]

I have been thinking about a deep(long?) visored sallet, kettle helm (because of visability issues), and I also like the great helm (if you make enough breaths, forward visibility is not too bad, just can't really see to the side) . I plan on making everything that I can, I just don't know where to start.

[Brian Hunt]

If you want to build armour, this article will help give you some basic information. http://www.arador.com/articles/index.html

If you have some specific questions, let me know, I am an amature armour smith. I have even sold sevaral pieces to various people.

Brian Hunt
GFS