The damaging power of the less-powered strikes

[JeanryChandler]

Yeah, don't get me wrong, as some of y'all know from other threads I'm actually a big believer in the cut. Lance was showing damage from hyperxtended tip cuts. He and many others can show you plenty of evidence of the considerably more horrific damage which results from a more powerful cut. I don't think it would be hard to partially or completely sever the hand or arm for example and I'm pretty sure that would be a fight ender in the vast majority of cases.

Lance, I think most of your own cuts are pretty good, its really more your sparring partners I think. You can be a bit too generous in what you let them call a hit.

As I mentioned, some other drills might help, a two striks to kill rule or even an SCA style one hand is dead but I can still use the other, though you have to be careful how you handle that one. Bottom line is a skimming nick on the forearm should not end a bout, at least in my humble opinion.

Jr

[s_taillebois]

All well, that's where a difference of opinion would arise. One of the reasons for my fondness for the bastard sword, is that it is well suited for the thrust. But that does present some substantial safety issues in sparring with wasters.
However, all that comes with the caveat, insofar as have never stuck anybody with a live blade, and hope never to do so. (Although it unfortunately has been out, where I live is a very weird, and alas, a very violent place...Perhaps I need to find the patron saint, for getting away from reservations?)
But from the various people getting cut apart here and then feeling compelled to show the lovely reminders, perhaps cuts anything less than fairly deep, or artery severing may not have been that effective-whether historically or in a modern context.
And although practice cutting with my bastard, shows that the attendant mess would be appalling, it does seem limited when the cut is based off the tip. Perhaps this observation is limited, insofar as I don't currently have a proper broadsword, falchion or such about for comparative tests. Something else to buy...but have gotten fond of the bastard type swords.
That said, thank the patron saint of miswended swords, that we can keep this a hypothetical discussion.

[Lance Chan]

About my partners sometimes hitting with way too little force, I agree. Will try to improve their concept on this!

[SzabolcsWaldmann]

hmmmmmm.....

The following happened a year or so ago, and was the greatest injury we had in our training.
In a sense, it was my fault, not sending the guy home who came without fencing gloves. So this guy fenced with another, who also made a mistake: his sword had small nicks and was not grinded flat before the training, which in that case was not for beginners. So they did nothing special: a simple cut with a parry, all done well. The sword of the other simply landed smoothly on his gloveless hand, AFTER the practiced movement, and he pulled it back, very smoothly. But then, the nicks on the sword were sharp and his hand was cut, very long, very deep! And it bled, my fellow swordsmen, like hell! I was on the other side of the hall, and saw only the blood and almost had a shock myself, thinking his hand was cut off.

It was actually a smooth slice, not even a proper cut.

The gloveless guy became 9 (!) stitches after that in the hospital on his very slender wound.

What I want to say is, on human skin, I have no doubt about the power of smooth cuts with a sharp blade. if you sewer a vital sinew or a vein, the effect can be totally defeating. There is even on this ARMA site a tale about a medieval juristical fight where a sinew is cut though and the fight is won.

Bye

Szab

[JeanryChandler]

Thats the "coup de jarnac" I think you are referring to. But I think what you are describing is a draw-cut or a slice, which is a bit different.

Jr

[John_Clements]

Hi Guys,
Let me add here that there is often on historical swords a cross-sectional change toward the point that is not reflected in most modern reproduction blades. It's difficult to explain, but it is essentially that while the point gets thinner, it also can be made thicker toward the outer edges. Almost like this example side view: ---== if you follow the meaning of the graphic. On top of this, we've come to question the hardness of many modern swords replicas.

As to low powered point cuts, remember, a point actually travels faster than the rest of the blade and it has the mass of the weapon behind it, so even a short motion from a narrow portion can indeed sever bare flesh. Try it against soft cloth (or armor) though and the result will be diffferent.

Gotta run

JC

[Shane Smith]

To further complicate things, I examined a few examples hands-on at Glasgow Museums this past wednesday that had a noticeable thickening of cross-section at the point. The blades actually were nearly as thick at the tip as at the mid-point if I recall properly. Tobias Capwell (Curator, Glasgow Museums) pointed it out during our tour of the stores on several sharp and pointies. Stay tuned for a future article submission <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Bill Tsafa]

What you guys are saying about thicker tips makes a lot of sense. I think manufactures are offline when it comes to pointy thrusting swords. I have handled a good number of pointy swords like Lances and my Lucerin Prince. In all cases the point seemed a bit too flexible. These are swords that developed in the late 15 th century in part to break apart the mail rings protecting the joints. The point on all the such swords that I have examined is way too thin and flexible and folds on impact. We should try to bring this to the attention of sword manufactures.

I think this may have a lot to do with the sword industry catering mostly to people who don't realy use swords and just try to cut the occasional business card to show how good (sharp) their sword is. Naturly if the cross section is thick it will not be as sharp. Even with a fine edge a thicker blade must push aside more material and will encounter more resistace. So manufactures are trying to give thrusting swords a better cutting ability but at the expense of thrusting ability. A thrusting sword should emphesize a tough point rather then a sharp edge on that point. As John pointed out above, the tip of the blade moves faster then the rest of the sword and can cut flesh easily without being supersharp. My windlass classic midieval came unshappened and I did some testing cutting on cardboard boxes before sharpening it. Even with an unsharpened edge I had not trouble cutting through cardboard which is harder then skin. In the event that you encounter any armor, the edge won't make a difference anyway.

[s_taillebois]

Well probably it's a combination of the steels available (for a reasonable cost) and the advertising advantages of the sword bending competition.
Methinks too many are confusing swords with foils....
Ironically, the condition M. Clement's illustrates, would be easy to make with CAD/CAM equipment. And so, I'd wonder why the manufacturers don't kick in some of those subtleties.
Wouldn't cost them much.
But withall, given some of the events alluded to in this thread, sparring with live steel might be problematic. Especially since a stunning proportion of sword fanciers do seem to find out, in a small way, what these things will do to tissue.
Perhaps that's part of the rationale for many manufacturers not getting close to the subtleties of period weapons...it's a very obtuse liability concern. Mayhaps one of the lawyers who post here could comment on that...

[SzabolcsWaldmann]

Steve,
You know what I say? There are things you only do, learn, try and know properly with live steel. It is simply different. In our training, we use solely blunts and no wasters, and for the battles and bouts padded weapons of different kinds (check out the twohander! http://www.sword.sg18.net/hu/ruestkammer/hu_rk_padded.htm. There is of course always a bit'o risiko in this, but with all safety rules (fencing gloves, proper clothes, blunt swords) it should not be a bigger problem than wasters. In 3 years we had no injuries except of the above written one, and even that was an unfortunate event with many safety rules broken and not noticed by me or my aide.
But you know.... (not talking about rapier fencing here) we believe that only facing a real blade with real danger will teach you some of the finer aspects (and teaches you about yourself).

Anyway, if I may come back to the subject, I was yesetrday in the Historical Museum Budapest, and met the curator, who accepted our call for him to be our professional consultant. I got a few originals in my hands, and what I found amazing, how thin the blades actually were. Since they meant to be sharp, all things aside they could be made thin, in contradiction with modern blunts, where you have to let a bit more material towards the point to generate an edge not meant for cutting. Even, if such a purchased modern blunt sword is sharpened, it has not the same effect than a thinner blade, that feeling I had.
I handled a verrrry fine Schiavona which was so light I could not believe it and an unbelievably fine specimen of a twohander, being one of the heaviest with its 8 punds (5.5 kgs), and still it could be handled wonderfully (Mr. Clements, you actually know that sword, don't you? <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> ). That was, becouse towards the tip, it became just as thin as the Schiavona itself.
I feel sorry one cannot test a sword built this way. I had the feeling, I could cut a tight of a pig in half.
It only made my belief stronger that even small or powerless cuts can do their job if executed correctly. A nice drawcut can probably do more damage than a powerful strike, but that I cannot prove in any way <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Byez

Szab

[s_taillebois]

Perhaps, but alas, here in the US liability issues do tend to present problems in matters of this kind. Ok when it's some associates/friends sparring, and they have the knowledge and inclination to avoid problematic thrusts or etc. But as for inviting general public, without some kind of screening, that might be trouble. For example, here on the reservation, some defense/martial arts courses (with no weapons involved) have needed to be curtailed due to problematic events or liability concerns. Granted the reservation is a profoundly violent place, but these are issues which will arise elsewhere as ARMA fencing becomes more popular.
To illustrate, here in the US (especially in the East), there is a rising interest in using fencing (mainly epee') as a physical/,moral education program for kids and young adults. But due to the legal climate here in the US, they're very careful not to present any real 'danger'.
That's where ARMA faces some ambiguety, I'd hate to have it banned because careless, reckless, or ill trained people did something problematic. The US, isn't as free from constraints as it used to be...
As far as facing 'danger' well that's relative. And sport fencing, even such as the nature of ARMA, is by no means the equivalent of having to deal with real and potential lethal violence. Although it may have some utility in preparing people for that unfortunate possibility.

[Bill Tsafa]

I think sparring equipment and real swords have to be kept seperate. Sparring wquiptment is intended to be safe. You need to spar in order to develope you skills and you don't want to hurt your friend or be hurt. You also need to do pell practice with real swords if you are to stay true to the war concept. For pell practice their can be no compromise the sword has to be deadly. There can be no blending of the two. Any sword maker who tries to make a real sword safer has no idea what his purpose is.

[Bill Welch]

In reply to:
"You also need to do pell practice with real swords if you are to stay true to the war concept. For pell practice their can be no compromise the sword has to be deadly. There can be no blending of the two. "

Why??

I think most people use wasters in their pell work, I know I do because I don't want to bust up a good sword, or ruin my pell with a good sharp. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Flourishing, and test cutting is the only time I use my sharp, sparring we use a blunt that resembles the feather sword from
the historical swiss swords by Derek Wassom.

link to what ours looks like, not the same thing exactly but very useful http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/63/63240/folders/192846/1528876sword.JPG

[Filip Pobran]

about low quality of swords...

well, i'm lucky, because i live in country which is often said to be underdeveloped <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" /> why? because i can go to smith and say what sort of sword do i want and which way i want it to be made. custom made. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> i don't like buying swords by internet. i don't know what i will be given.
it is much easier to injure yourself with bad sword than with good. belive me, for i know <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" />

[Bill Tsafa]

I have some good news guys. I was busy all last week sending links to this thread to various sword to give them some real feedback.

Swords of Valor got back to me. They said they were interested in what we have to say and they were also very interested in the link to my sword testing website that I sent them.

Swords of Valor said that as a direct result of the data and pictures I provided on my website they will stop selling Valiant Armory swords next month. That is not realy what I wanted because the Valiant Armory Degesse is a good sword I think. I would prefer to be more selective. Regardless, that is their descision.

It is hard for them to keep up with all the threads in this forum but they said they have an easier idea to more closely monitor the effects of my public tests on the sword market. They have requested that if you place an order with Swords of Valor after reading my reviews, that you place the initials of my website next to your name as such: (STP). It should look like John Smith (STP). For your assistance in helping them gather market data you will receive an immediate 5% discount on any sword purchase. If you have any trouble with this you should ask for Jason at Swords of Valor. If you still have trouble e-mail me. tsafa@aol.com If you were planning to buy a sword anyway from them, you have nothing to loose, the discount is yours. Their website is: http://www.armsofvalour.com I am happy to see that my efforts are finally starting to pay off. I plan to establish a new standard for toughness. I will continue to buy swords and test them on my tire-pell. Vendors are starting to listen to the quality demands of customers. I guess it is kind hard for them to ignore people posting pictures of broken swords on webpages. They said that 90% of their sales originate on the internet and that if people can find their webpage, they can also find my reivew site and this forum. So they want to sell good products. The seem like they mean it, we'll see....

If you want to take another look at my website it is : http://mysite.verizon.net/tsafa1/swordreview.htm