Fat no defense

[TimSheetz]

Dang! Randall. That's rough.

I was thining that it could be true in a limitied way with a thrust. Catching them on a side so the blade merrely passes through fatty tisue and no vitals... the stabber might think he got a good one... but I doubt it.

Peace,

Tim

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Trooper Coates in Georgia shot a man with a .357 5 or six times centermass in the chest area- this man did not die and was able after being shot to shoot Trooper Coates twice with a .22 derringer killing him.

The man survived- he was listed as 5'08" and over 340lbs, mostly in the chest. Trooper Coates was about 6'04" and 220 lbs- the .22 cal struck him in the armpit severing an artery and killing him from shock and internal bleeding in about 3-4 minutes.

Not- that swords wounds behave the same as bullets-but the fatness or thickness of the mans chest was a significant factor in his ability to surivive the encounter-

[Joachim Nilsson]

But wa sthe weight of the man Coates shot based upon fat or pure muscle and bone? And was he under the influence of any drugs, like PCP or something similar?

[Jaron Bernstein]

The guy who shot Coates was a butterball. Lots of fat, not much muscle. If I recall (Aaron is this correct?) he was under the influence marijuana (cannabis). Coates was in excellent condition.

[Joachim Nilsson]

Jaron wrote:

The guy who shot Coates was a butterball. Lots of fat, not much muscle. If I recall (Aaron is this correct?) he was under the influence marijuana (cannabis). Coates was in excellent condition.

Now would that be considered a freak occurence or an exemple of the normality in your eyes?

[Jaron Bernstein]

Good question, but not one I can answer with any authority. I have never shot anyone, nor been shot myself (and hope to keep things that way!). I have seen 2 people in person dead from gunshot wounds. The first was .38 caliber in the skull. It looked like a puckered entry wound with no exit wound. The other was an average built guy (no excessive fat or muscle to speak of), shot in back, through the back seat of his car as he drove away from a drug deal gone bad. Again, no exit wound. This guy bled to death internally and was pale as a sheet of paper from the blood loss, but with no visible external damage or bleeding beyond the one entry wound.

Trooper Coates was shot in the armpit, which would not have been covered by fat or muscle in any case, and unfortunately his kevlar vest didn't cover that area. So, I don't know if we can infer from these 3 cases what fat (or muscle) would or wouldn't have done to protect the person.

OTOH, he did shoot his attacker with several heavy bullets at relatively close range, and the guy lived. Luck? Fate? I don't know.

What would be of more use here is if someone did (maybe it has already been done) a medical study on the wounds caused by these yobos with their katanas who recently seem to be running amok.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

I just cited that example as an interesting segway...I think the guy who shot Coates's name was Blackburn, I try not to remember the jerks names...only the fallen Brothers and Sisters. Blackburn was all fat...he just carried the majority of it in the chest area, which was wierd.

Interestingly enough, Coates was in excellent shape, but was wearing Cowboy boots which may have lead to him slipping and falling at one point which made the shooting possibly not as effective....

This example was without a doubt a strange and tragic set of circumstances, and if the same to people were in the same situation I think it would have ended diffrently. It was just his time I guess....

[TimSheetz]

Hi Guys,

I think that fat may have different effects on ballistics of firearms... If the fat makes the bullet - most likely a hollowpoint - expand more before it hits vitals then it would actually reduce the damage, right?

What if the trooper Coates was using FMJ? Maybe it would have punched through the blubber in stead of expanding? Any way for you guys to check that out?

I am sure that the fat would only assist a guy in a fight with swords by confusing targeting by his opponent. What is fat and what isn't? Better off aiming for his head, maybe.

Peace,

Tim

[Kyro_Lantsberger]

I think the "fat assertion" is just another example of an academic speaking outside of his or her area of expertise.

another example: Saw a show (same?) on gladiators that mentioned that only fingerbreaking was banned in ancient Pankration, and only that was "too brutal". A cursory glance into the world of modern submission wrestling/MMA would tell you that its 1. not that easy 2. Is looked down upon for not improving a position - not opening a guard, rolling someone over, etc.

The forensic evidence needs to give way to other sources. What slave has any sort of control over diet? Who on this Earth really had control over their diet until the last century?

This might be gross, but still applies.......When I worked in corrections, we had a morbidly obese inmate who we took to the hospital for surgery......Docs heard an odd scratching sound when they were opening him up...turns out they "missed" his organs entirely and had just cut through fat all the way down and had reached the table on the other side.....gross dude.......couldnt wipe his butt, unable to reach it, had a special system.

I dont know if any of that counts as protection or not.

[Mike Cartier]

yes I saw that program too, Its a fine example of "much ado about nothing". I Don't buy the fat protecting from sword or knife attacks either. I think John has it more correctly that the diet was something which beneifted them more directly.

However with one exeption, its possible that fat reserves allowed for some measure of proetction against infection on a cut, if I am not mistaken there are certain qualities in fat which can protect against infection. Could be mis-remembering though.

[Logan Weed]

As I understand it he's drawing this whole fat thing purely from their diet? My relatively similar diet has resulted in roughly 150 lbs at 5'11" and 18 years. He doesn't seem to realize just how much energy several hours of daily martial excercise requires.

[JeanryChandler]

As probably the fattest member of the entire worldwide WMA community, (I'm not particularly proud to admit) I can say without a doubt that being fat has definately not helped me at all with sparring. :0 I think it has held me back quite a bit! As for stab wounds, I haven't recieved any but I'll let you know if I ever do. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Jr

[John_Clements]

I've tried to locate an email for Dr. Grossschmidt online without success. Too bad we can't to get in touch with him on this.

[Bill Welch]

Großschmidt Karl


Ass.Prof.


Histologie

Hey John the address book for the university of vienna is, his email, phone, and address at the university are on it. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />


http://www.univie.ac.at/mcw-block8/Mail-Adressen.htm

article from ancient world news about the fat gladiators
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/ancient/AncientRepublish_1081439.htm

austrian archaeological institute
http://www.oeai.at/eng/index.html

[Francisco Uribe]

JC,
I agree that fat does provide special defense.
But I'd like to correct your assertion on the firt post that fat is mostly water.
Is the complete opposite. Fat excludes water. Adipose tissue contains much less water than other tissues in the human body. Long term energy storage of the human body is better served by fat than carbohydrate, specially because with the first there is no associated water molecules. Thus this increases the actual ratio Energy/material stored.
In other words you pack more energy in less volume and weight.

I think that a diet rich in barley and beans, would have provide the gladiators with an excellent source of energy. In this case it would be easy for the human body to disgest and store in the form of fat.
There are other ways you can do that, with different diets. But I think most of these alternatives may have been found perjudicial for gladiators performance and health.

We have to keep in mind that gladiators, due to the nature of their activity, may have have better relied on aerobic metabolism, fueled mainly by fat.

So I guess that in the end, the fat issue is not one of armor, but of physical conditioning and performance.

my 2 cents.

Francisco