on changing through and sword taking

[Dylan palmer]

im posting this to ask for your interprations on these two techniques. as far as i understand it changing through is a way to defeat a fencer who fights to the sword insted of the body. if this is true can someone explain how one whould exacute this hand work perhaps with an example. just for efferance this is what goliath states on the matter.



"When you come to him with pre-fencing then strike him a high strong one, if he strikes then in return against your sword and not your body, then in the strike let the point sink through, swiping below the sword as and when he binds on your sword, and stab to his chest on the other side. If he is aware of the stab and drives the sword stabbing right after with displacement, then change through and always do this when he drives with displacment against the sword."



second i feel that the sword taking is self explanitory in text but i would also like to hear how you preform this technique from a arma members interpration.



thanks in advace with best regards Dylan.

[Mike Cartier]

I can only comment on what changing through is in the Meyer fechtbuch as that is the only manual I am particularly familiar with.

The changing handwork is twofold in Meyer

Firstly it is a deception used while cutting at the opponent.
For example, I would cut zornhau while the opponent cuts zornhau and right as our swords are about to meet I pull the hilt and bring the point to my left shoulder (under the opponents sword), effectivly making him miss. Then with a great leap out to the side you counter cut from the other side.
When done with good deceptive footwork it works magnificently usually striking the opponent as he misses and leaving him no room to defend. This works well with two handed or single handed sword. This works very well in sparring.

The changing handwork also applies to cutting in that any cut which does not get pulled, where the energy of the cut continues through into another cut trajectory.
For example you can cut a zornhau and immediatly redirect the blade to cut a mittelhau then redirect to cut a scheitelhau all in one smooth motion.

Hope that helps

[Matthew_Anderson]

Changing through is really just moving your sword from one side of his to the other. It has various applications and forms, but really, that's all it is. In the example you posted, he is binding strongly against your sword, putting pressure against it. You drop your point, allowing your blade to slide down his, then as the point drops below his hilt, you quickly bring the point back up, now on the other side of his sword, and thrust him. This all has to happen very quickly of course, and you must maintain contact with his blade to prevent him sensing what you are doing and simply beating you to the punch.

[Matt Bryant]

Well on the issue of Schwertnehmen (Sword Taking) you have to understand that it is not a single technique. Just like many other aspects of the art (absetzen, verstzen, winden and so on...) it is a concept that you apply to the situation. Any technique you perform where you disarm your opponent is Schwertnehmen.

[philippewillaume]

Hello, Dylan
One thing you need to know as well is that there is slight difference between authors as to what is what.

Ringeck
Von durchwechslen.
(41 r )Durchwechslen lere von bayden sytten, stich mitt sere. Wer vff dich bindet durchwechsel in schier findet.
Glosa.
Daß ist, daß du das durchwechslen wol lernen solt. Vnd das tryb als: wenn du im in dem zu°fechten ein hawest oder zu° stichst, will er dir denn mitt ainem hawe oder mitt versetzen an daß schwert binden, so lauß den ort vnder sinem schwert durch wischen. Vnnd stich im do mitt sere eyn zu° der anderen sytten; so fündest du an im schier de blöß.

The Durchwelchen (changing through)
The durchwelchen learn from both/either side, thrust grievously, who bind of you, the durchwelchsen quickly (schier= schnell) find.
Glose
That is that you are to learn the durchwelschen well. And that is do like so. When fencing you strike or thrust at him, should he then bind at your sword with a strike or a parry. So let the point sweep under across his sword and thrust powerfully to his other side: so you find his opening in speed.

VD, lew and speyer have the following:
Wiß der durch wechsel ist vil und mangerley und die magstu triben ausß allen [durchgestrichen: wen] heuw gegen den vechtern die do hauwen noch dem schwertt und nicht zu den plossen des mans und die soltu gar woll lernen triben mit fursichtikeytt daz man dir icht an setz die wiell du Im durch wechselst.
Item dy durch wechseln tribe also: wen du mit dem zu vechten zu im kumpst, so hauw imlang In zu dem kopff, hauwt er dan gegen dir zu dem schwertt und nicht zu dem lieb, so loß den ortt mit dem hauw unten durch wechseln Ee er an daz schwertt pindt und stich im zu der andern siten, wirt er dan des stichs gewar und vert mit dem [durchgestrichen: stich] schwert dem stich bald noch mit versatzung, so wechschell aber durch zu der andern siten und daz tribe alwegen wen er dir noch dem schwertt fertt mit der versatzung zu beyden siten.
Item aber ein durch wechseln: wen du mit dem zu vechen zu Im kumpst, so setz den lincken fus vor und halt im den langen ortt gegen dem gesichtt, heut er dir dan von oben oder von unten zu dem schwertt und wil dir daz hinweg schlagen oder do von winden, loß den ort untersich sincken und stich zu der andern siten und thun daz gegen allen heuwen.
(36r) Item daz stuck merck gar eben: wen er dir versetz hat oder sunst an dem schwertt gebunden, helt er dir dan am schwert sin ortt nit gegen der ploß dines liebs und lest den dir neben besitz auß gen uff die siten, so wechsell im kunlich unten durch oder plypt er dir mit dem ortt vor dem gesicht gegen den plossen, so wechsell nit durch und plib am schwertt und arbeytt im do mit zu der nechsten ploß, so mag er dir nit noch reissen noch ansetzen.


What Mikes describe would be more a zucken according to VD, lew and speyer (Ringeck’s is slightly different)
But that does not mean that it is not durch welchen for Meyer (from http://schielhau.org/Meyer.p14.html)
Wechselhauw
Der Wechselhauw ist nichts anders, dann vor dem Manne mit den häuwen von einer seiten zur andern, von Oben zum Undern und hinwieder abwechseln, ihn damit irre zumachen.
Change Strike
The Change Strike is nothing other than changing from one side to the other, from above to below and back again, before striking your opponent, thus make it so.
Schneller oder Zeckrur
Schneller oder Zeckrur ist fast ein ding, welche eigentlich nit häuw seindt die gehauwen, sonder geschnelt werden, die werden volbracht in mitten oder voller arbeit, wann einer fug hat, so nemlich von Oben oder auff beiden seiten, oder von Unden gegen deinem gegenpart mit der flech oder aussern theil der klingen, das wehr last Schnappen oder in einem schwung oben oder under seiner klingen hinein schnellest.
Rusher or Twitch-hit
Rusher or twitch-hit(?) is basically a thing which is actually hardly a strike, but if the strike should be rushed it will be completed in the middle or full work when one has engaged, namely from above or on both sides or from below against your opponent with the flat or outer part of the blade, let the weapon snatch or rush inward in a swing over or under his blade.

phil

[philippewillaume]

In a strict Ringeck world, I would explain the difference more in term of what is the input of your opponent.

Sword taking is grabbing the sword of you opponent and either taking it from him or using your hold to throw or to break the arms. But to make thing simple you could call it a subset of wrestling at the sword

Changing through is getting your point under and across is blade.

Usually when it is pertinent to do one the other will be very contrived and not that safe.

It a bit of a stupid example but I think I will put what I mean across.
If you strike and oberhaw and defends by taking the ox to the left.

If he strikes your point with his strong and does go with his body across your center line (well to much any way)
He is threatening to stab you but we could say that our tip is closer to his body that his tip is to ours. And his energy is going sideway.
It is very likely that our hand will not be move early in the strike.
So you let your point goes where he sends use and use that motion bring it back under and across and trust at he chest. (To make it safe, you will probably have to wind left or right according to what he give you)
In that case only your point goes across you stay on the same side of his blade

If he got you sort of half way down your sword, his body passing across your centerline and if it early in the technique;
You can use that do deep your sword under and through and thrust at him.
Safety will come from the fact that you are moving opposite his movement and to a place where he will have to move his feet to get you.
This time all the sword goes under and across

If you do not pick that up early enough or if he was feinting and counter wind when we try to go through and under you cannot really change through again.
So it is better to hook with your cross guard and do the wrestling (the sword taking are usually part of that type of entry.)

I hope that helped

[Dylan palmer]

not to be a nusace but i think i have cofused winding and changing through. can someone clarify the differances between the two motions. pherhaps with a picture and some examples.



i alwaise thought winding was changing from one ox to another here is what i mean.

say two addversaries face each other both in vom tag the oppent beats you to the vor and strikes zorn to your left ear you attempt to counter with a hidden cut zornhau-ort yet the counter came to slow and you were not able to thrust now both oppents are bound at the center of the swords. you feel he is soft at the sword so you wind into left ox attepting to thrust him through the face he notices this and attepts to displace the trust with strength you then wind into ox on your right and turing your hilt to the side so the point moves arounnnd his blade(while you take a step forward)thrust him through the face.


now heres where im confused is this an upper winden or is it a changing through.

[philippewillaume]

Hello
Speaking strictly from a ringeck point of view: (we have discussion recently and what is winding changed slightly from on master to the other so other people may give you a different take on it. It is just a matter on how you look at thing so I am not sure there a correct answers per se.

So for ringeck
Winding is just a rotation, It is just a way to move the sword, like you would the handle of a manually operated well. (I.e. activating the handle on flywheel).
Duchwelchen is just sweeping the tip of our sword below the sword of the opponent

In my opinion there are not mutually exclusive
You can very well durchwelchen with a winding but a durchwelchen is not necessarily a winding nor a winding a durchwelchen

So to go back to your example
If he is weak, we ride on his sword and thrust at him in a kind of extend ploug.
If we go high and in an Ox you give him what he wanted and he will be able to counter wind / changing through/ zucken (what ever is relevant for him) and we will be dead.

Even if he did not do that and we wind into a high ox and displace our thrust (ie moving our tip away from him) he has enough time to carve the full name address and phone number of his girl friend on us before we finish the move.
We have nowhere to go he can control us easily what ever way around his sword we go, he have a large time window to operated and he leaves us small time windows.
Basically he is in the position we would like to be.
That is why you only thrust high in the OX if he is strong.

phil

[david welch]

not to be a nusace but i think i have cofused winding and changing through. can someone clarify the differances between the two motions. pherhaps with a picture and some examples.

There was a lot of this going around. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Don't think of winding as a technique.

Try thinking about it this way. If I want to hit you, I can use a "strike" against you... but a "strike" isn't a technique, it is an umbrella that a lot of techniques fall under, the largest division being that I can "strike" you with the technique of an unterhaw or an oberhaw.

If I want to hit you ( and a hit can be a cut, a thrust, or a slice), but you have your sword in the way where I can't reach you, there are a bunch of techniques that let me get around your sword to hit you. These techniques fall under the umbrella of "winding".

Make sense, or have I just made it worse?